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It's official. After 3 months of back and forth, a major medical provider has elected to drop me as a patient for not having a Google or Apple device. It is unclear if this is legal, but it is very clearly discriminatory and unethical. Any tech journalists or lawyers interested in this? I would like to do anything I can to ensure this never happens to anyone else. 311 comments
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@BenAveling @Jennifer There are no medical devices involved. They said they only willing to communicate, schedule, and exchange medical information with patients with their apple/google mobile app moving forward, even if it means terminating relationships with existing patients. I even offered to show up in person for every communication, and they refused. @lrvick @BenAveling @Jennifer 1 in 3 seniors does not even own a smartphone. I don't understand how this could be even economically feasible, let alone legal. What's the company?  @lrvick @BenAveling @Jennifer There isn’t even a suitable web experience? (Putting aside that even that isn’t good enough of course), it’s installed app or bust? That’s crazy. @tphinney @Jennifer Exactly this, and they chose to introduce it months after I became a patient, having known from the outset that I do not have or want a Google or Apple device. I gave up my smartphone 3 years ago, and am a lot happier being disconnected when I am not at my desk. It would seem some don't consider this a valid lifestyle choice. This is the first time anyone has refused me services for not having a phone.  @lrvick @tphinney @Jennifer I'm sympathetic. My wife has a device that doesn't require an app, but benefits from smartphone integration. At some point, I assume they will require one—and then what? I've boosted your post. Check out KFF Health News https://www.kff.org – they are like ProPublica in writing stories that are often partnered with major news orgs.  @lrvick @tphinney @Jennifer Nothing like a medical provider electing to drop me as a patient, but last week I dropped off 3 boxes at FedEx in Walgreens and couldn't get a receipt because I didn't have a smart phone with me. They were prepaid returns worth several hundred dollars. People are being forced to have a smart phone on their person at all times to do ordinary everyday things.  That is horrible! What insurance provider is this? I can't believe they don't have a patient portal that you could access from your computer. Or email? Messaging on their website? Maybe an app for PCs in the Windows store? Nada? There really oughta be a law to enable you to fight this kind of discrimination. I hope you are able to sort this out soon. @BeanieBarrow Nothing yet. I have to now go find another provider and commute further to get there regularly.  @orc It is a large US medical services provider that only performs certain types of services which is not something I am prepared to reveal publicly just yet. Especially when I have not yet secured an alternative provider. I still want to feel in control of what gets revealed to who and when. I would potentially be willing to share with a trusted journalist or lawyer at this time to consider my options, and they can verify what I am saying is true with ease. I have receipts for everything.  I bet Legal Eagle on youtube would be willing to feature your story if you'd give him a ring. @lrvick I always assumed this day was coming, and yet I'm struggling to understand how that would even work. Like, are they mad that you can't download their app or something? @nateb I was an existing patient, and they had been communicating with email, video calls, and in person. They had a policy change and decided that I was strongly encouraged to buy an Apple or Google device and install their proprietary patient services app,. They stalled and ghosted me with no appointments for for 3 months before finally admitting in writing that the app I was told was optional, was actually required and they needed to drop me. @lrvick What the fuck... Well if you can't find a journalist I'd be happy to lend my platform. I'd recommend finding a good journalist first though cause they've got the experience and def a much bigger platform, but if nobody replies feel free to hit me up. @lrvick I'll bet the folks at @OffTheHook would be interested in hearing about this situation.  @lrvick I don’t think this is legal, there’s no fucking way it’s legal to deny someone medical services because they don’t have a phone/have a weird phone unlike what most people use @lrvick  @SRLevine   @CelloMomOnCars @lrvick @ProPublica To compel me to carry a phone, i was denied a covid booster and antibiotics. I was prepared to amputate my L index finger over an infected hangnail, but solved it with heat. I'd walk to the clinic and the receptionist wouldn't admit that it was a clinic and just fucked with me until i left. The local cops set it up. You are NOT allowed to walk around phoneless in america. In Estonia, you can get a motorola stick phone with no camera or gps at all. Imma sell ladies' bags lined with aluminised mylar, heh. Already have a piece of foil in my wallet, right around the bank card. I'm not tech enough for that. I'ma goan buy a bunch of dipsies and lead line a box. I know lead works. @lrvick if this happens to anyone in Oregon, there is FLEX funding that'll pay for a cell & cell service under Care Oregon. It is a simple form that you may print or at your local library then take to any medical physician to assist you with filling out the form. If you are unhoused and unsure as to how to navigate this, please feel free to reach out and I will assist you to the best of my ability 🖤 I'm pretty sure the issue isn't that @lrvick can't get a phone. They don't want one on principle. @VirginiaHolloway @lrvick yeah, they probably don't live in Oregon either. I acknowledge that they most likely use a Linux phone, if one at all. Though my words may seem irrelevant to the post, I shared my thoughts for folks who cannot access ongoing medical care due to a lack of income for things such as phone/ phone service @0batty_bat0 @VirginiaHolloway I don't use a phone or accept the terms of service of Apple or Google by choice. I feel it should always be just that for anyone. A choice. Also, I used to be homeless, and have lived without a phone when I literally could not afford one. Sometimes it is not a choice. No one should be required to have an Apple/Google device for medical care. @lrvick @VirginiaHolloway I'm not disagreeing, just letting folks know that there options if one is wanted  @lrvick @0batty_bat0 @VirginiaHolloway if they mandate you have a phone before you receive basic services like healthcare, then the govt needs to provide an open source alternative phone and free/ supplemented network access if that won't happen (spoiler: it won't happen) then go speak to a lawyer. they may pro bono the work because it would obviously be an important groundbreaking case seriously this is big. make some noise @BrahmaBelarusian @lrvick @0batty_bat0 @VirginiaHolloway point taken, understood. mandating mode of care without support for it is not the real no-no here, merely the mandate is. thank you  @lrvick @0batty_bat0 @VirginiaHolloway How does this medical provider provide adequate senior's care or disability care? There are so many people who still have nothing but landlines. My mom has never had a cell phone, and she works for a hospital. This is just odd. Is it that they want you to install an app? @lrvick @0batty_bat0 @VirginiaHolloway I'm pretty close to this mess happening myself, as I don't use telephone calls to communicate & only carry a Linux os phone (if any) when I travel. It is mainly privacy rights problem, but likewise affects many disabled when, as with my area so far, it's "phone calls, an Android/iphone app, or in person" I've yet to be dropped by an existing provider but see it as something that's inevitable soon, if more don't fight against this, with lawyers/legal teams I know I cant afford. @lrvick @0batty_bat0 @VirginiaHolloway I abandoned mobile a couple years ago for a bunch of reasons, but it was lame to hit an impasse during a job application because VoIP numbers are invalid.  @lrvick if it’s some sort of IoT device related to your health monitoring, it should be provided by your care team independent of surveillance capitalism.  @lrvick so messed up! i held onto my Blackberry as long as I could, then i had to go back to a basic phone to avoid the duopoly. i haven't had health insurance in a while but it seems even people with benefits have problems   @lrvick Needs to be legislation to force companies in certain fields to not be able to require an app. It's getting ridiculous.  @lrvick You're in the U.S.? That's outrageous. Just as a matter of accessibility for patients with disabilities, I'm amazed that they don't provide telephone, printed forms, or written mail alternatives. Nonsensical for a major medical provider. If it's a hospital rather than an insurer, I'm still amazed that they don't offer to confirm appointments over the phone, or to provide snail mail confirmation of appointments and whatnot. In this day and age. Sigh.    @adamshostack @lrvick Also good! I don't know if the FDA should be informed. PROBABLY. @lrvick This sounds like something Cory Doctorow @pluralistic writes about. He may have suggestions for you. @joelcrump @lrvick yes, it is so onerous. The fact that simply USING the smartphone on a basic level requires constant & egregious privacy cviolations & agreement to "terms of service" that functionally mean the company can exploit you & every scrap of data your movements, proximity to other people (with smartphones), browsing & shopping habits, etc. For some the convenience is not worth it & that should be a valid choice. It should be considered a huge & onerous decision to use a smart device.  @lrvick Name and shame? As someone trying to migrate onto a Linux phone (one failed attempt with the PinePhone, so far), I'd like to know who to avoid. @lrvick You might reach out to Richard Stallman, or at least look into his writings. I see two ethical issues here. First, as you noted, this is a denial of medical care. I'm not that kind of doctor, so I don't know the ins and outs here, but I'm pretty sure there are some. You need to know how these affects your situation. Second, as a condition of receiving medical care, you are required to install software that, because it is proprietary, you cannot audit.  @benfell @lrvick
> You might reach out to Richard Stallman David - No one listens to him anymore. In fact, he's made fun of. There was a post that was trending here recently about Richard Stallman's corner in MIT and how 'it should be avoided'. Font/Color ⚠️ (for the link): https://cyberpunk.lol/users/vantablack/statuses/111687954275737374  @lrvick *just* a medical provider, barring some specific regulation, I'd venture is just a business decision on their part. Stupid, but on sum just use another provider (not always easy or convenient I know) An insurance company would maybe be a different story. But still, you could technically get diff insurance (decidedly less easy or convenient)  @lrvick Android or Apple tablet. Android emulator. Android Studio. None of those are phones yet may satisfy their ‘requirement’. (I have no plans to go private. Hopefully, the continued existence of the NHS will mean that I never have to.) @lrvick if the provider in question accepts Medicare or any other form of federal funding, this could also put them at risk of violating Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, and possibly other disability rights laws, unless the iOS and/or Android apps in question are fully conformant with WCAG 2 and Revised Section 508 accessibility standards. #accessibility  @mastobit @signalapp I don't have Signal, because Signal requires a Google or Apple device.  Shared for you--I hope you find someone interested in a pro bono case. I would definitely find out what your State board connected to hospitals, doctors, and insurance thinks about it. I'm to the point I avoid apps if I can. Looking at a tiny screen for things connected to health or finance is NOT how I want to see that material. Even plan to leave my CU as they changed to a system that prefers app usage. :( @lrvick that is so fucked. Only an insurance company would do something that absurdly terrible.   @lrvick I really thought we had longer before "Everything not forbidden is compulsory" made the rounds again... I'd like to say I have hopes of a quick resolution in your favor, but I doubt there is any precedence establishing non-device owners as a protected class. Reading in between the lines I'm imagining that you're dealing with a private institution, which will unfortunately lean hard into not being compelled to provide services to someone "unwilling to make reasonable arrangements". @kung_fu_emu It is a private medical institution, and non-apple-google owners is not a traditional protected class, however they lied to me at the start of treatment saying they they could use phone calls (I have voip DECT phones), email, and in person with no problem, then changed their minds partway through treatment demanding Google/Apple causing me to waste a lot of time and emotional energy. Now I have to find someone and somewhere else for a time-sensitive need. @lrvick what infuriates me is that often these apps are nothing more than web apps. A PWA would be more than enough. They don’t need their own app with tight OS integration to display results in a table or send an appointment notification. @lrvick That is, without exaggeration, one of the most ridiculous fucking things I have ever heard in my entire life. If that isn't illegal, full stop, then it should be grounds for revoking one's license. This sounds like pure laziness on the doctor's part, because I can think of no other reason to deny you MEDICAL care for not having an Apple or Google device other than it isn't as convenient for them. @iquaanyin They lied to me, saying they could accommodate me without a Google or Apple device using in-person and email communication, then changed their minds and dropped me as a patient after 4 months causing a lot of stress and wasted time for a time sensitive issue. Policies changed during the course of my treatment, supposedly. @lrvick I so despise how things which should NOT be tied to cell phones are now tied to owning these devices. @lrvick if you are in the US, I would contact your insurance provider. Doctors have rules they must follow in order to be providers under insurance plans, and I would be willing to bet that forced smart phone is in breach of those rules. They might not care about losing you as a patient, but if they are no longer able to bill insurance (and technically you can inform other providers they participate with as well,) those folks have much bigger litigation budgets.  @log @lrvick Haven't seen it but not surprised. Ten years ago I stopped using two health systems because when I went to get a second opinion (without revealing that fact), the doctor dismissively referred to a mostly-meaningless test the first health system's doctor had ordered and said I should just wait for the results of that. I.e. without me signing a release or even agreeing, he could see all of my data. And probably so can anyone else "MyChart" decides is tru$tworthy, like insurance.  @lrvick I believe the authority to file a complaint with is your State medical board. You may also be able to file a complaint with CMS if the provider takes Medicare.  @lrvick had a similar issue with my banks. Succumbed and now my old phone with only wifi and two apps lives in my office for 2FA'ing any transfer or online purchase I make.   @lrvick I'm very sorry that we as a society have come to this. Hopefully there are ethical lawyers willing to fight for #AntiDiscrimination in this realm.  @lrvick That’s happening in Brazil too. My health insurance replaced their physical cards with digital ones you can only access through their iOS or Android app. Most laboratories, clinics, and hospitals require you to use WhatsApp to schedule an appointment (I have a friend who couldn’t give up on WhatsApp completely because it was the only way she could communicate with a local public hospital). Our banking system is becoming increasingly dependent on smartphones, too. @lrvick  @lrvick I heard also banks inthe USA will not open an account for you unless you provide them with a mobile phone number! @klillington May be interested.    @lrvick @ProPublica has an ongoing series about problems with health care; they might be interested?   @lrvick @lrvick@mastodon.social On what grounds? Lots of seniors still don't have smartphones and such, this seems very untenable. What are they claiming you need it for?  @lrvick FWIW, Northwell Health appears to require a Google account for patient access to own medical records. @lrvick try contacting the EFF maybe? I second what someone else said about the Verge and Ars Technica, they have reporters who may be interested  @lrvick: Please mail me at oliwier dot jaszczyszyn at proton dot me with all evidence you've got. I'll cover this in Polish on my blog.
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Holy shit.