|
"Piracy can't be stealing if paying for it isn't owning" This is increasingly how it feels, when things you "own" digitally become inaccessible, and when shows which are locked in streaming services can get delisted on a whim, disappearing forever. Thank you @Illuminatus for this quote. [Edit: In case this wasn't clear, this is about entertainment and digital ownership, not physical goods] 250 comments
12
I don't think we've really ever had "digital ownership" in a formal, legal way. Everything we do is mashing copyright laws from the print era on top of things with no physical representation. Sometimes things with no legal copies in the public domain. We've given the creators the protections of copyright without the actual duty of distributing copies to paying parties. Or even to the public. We're giving out copyright, but we're not getting any copies. And that's just weird. @gamesbymanuel the realization that we invented a way to have cheap (essentially free) and perfect copies of some things and since then we have been trying to find ways to prevent people from making copies has been mind blowing.  @gamesbymanuel Except blockchains aren’t solutions. They never were. They’re just problems creating more problems. @gamesbymanuel @dinodroid @gamesbymanuel If I watch a movie without paying for it, once or 1000 times, there's no harm done. Nobody lost anything. @dinodroid I set up a direct buy option for my ebooks so readers would have the choice to own them outright but seems they prefer buying from Amazon 🤷 I guess it's a learning curve & easier to do what you've always done. @crcollins @Illuminatus I much prefer that solution and have done that in the past, but there is some more friction that way so I understand why people wouldn't be bothered. Yes, it is extra steps, which I explain on my site. But at least I provide the option. @crcollins @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus It would never have occurred to me that I could buy an ebook directly from an author's site. My guess is that's true for a lot of your readers. @crcollins  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus Arguably, you're paying for a transient experience - like riding a Ferris wheel. Just another reason I buy physical media for anything I really like. I'm not a big fan of the whole streaming culture. @analogfusion @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus I think it's more complicated than that though. Because the physical media aspect is also disappearing. My favorite music videos are available on YouTube but not on any Blu-ray purchase. Streaming COs have moved to no longer releasing DVDs of many shows. Even after they "sunset" the show. Audiobooks don't always have CD versions, etc. Bigger issue is that we're granting 100-year copyright to things that have no legal copies.  What I don't understand is why doesn't this effect how copyright can be used. You shouldn't be able to benefit from locking a work from view and still be able to keep control of it. Where's the benefit to creativity, corporate or individual, much less the public?  @Silversalty @gamesbymanuel Garden-fencing, privatisation of the public space, extracting the last drop of surplus value. Pure capitalism, in summary. @Illuminatus @gamesbymanuel Pick one or the other. Quick buck or long term investment. publishers would delete your memory of playing a game and make you buy it again next week if they could. @gamesbymanuel@peoplemaking.games @Illuminatus@mstdn.social  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus For this reason I buy BluRay discs and I download any music I buy as FLAC (or as high a quality as possible if FLAC isn't available).
 @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus and when there's no physical copy either. at least if I find something good on spotify, the band's got a few CDs @patterfloof @gamesbymanuel I think I am the only one of my friends' circle who hasn't spotify and still buys CDs. @Illuminatus @gamesbymanuel I've got a CD player downstairs & honestly appreciate the simplicity of a machine you just put a disc in & get music. No searching the whole streaming library for what mood I'm in & getting distracted by twitter. Simply pick something from the pre-curated shelf :) @patterfloof @gamesbymanuel My hope for the future of culture preservation (if humanity survives late stage capitalism and global warming), is that these become the norm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage @Illuminatus @gamesbymanuel hmmm, 1996. About the same time as they were pictured in Babylon 5  This is also a reason I like headphone jacks. You get a basic indicator for what device is paired (the cable is connected) and it's easy to connect (plug in) and disconnect (unplug) devices. You don't ever have to worry about your headphones being connected to the wrong device because you can see where the cord is I feel like companies dont want us owning anything anymore. I just bought a new printer & they tried to sell me a monthly "ink subscription" based on how many pages I print per month. For .99/ month you get 10 prints per month. Like WTF? @iHeartHockey29 @gamesbymanuel The easy comparison would be with Feudalism, but they did it already more recently: company towns, company stores. @Illuminatus @iHeartHockey29 @gamesbymanuel they're even bringing those back. Big company is building a neighborhood to provide housing for employees moving to the area. HMMMMMM.  @iHeartHockey29 @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus and what about cars?  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus This is complicated for me, because I know that a lot of authors are deeply dependent on sales *and* on platforms that are doing this "you can pay to borrow it until we don't feel like you having it anymore" BS. Piracy hurts those specific creators. But the anger at the whole system is definitely justified. @whetstone @gamesbymanuel It's true, specially where the *real* creators are concerned, such as writers, designers, artists, etc. But corporations have seized hostage the system to such a degree that those same artists are hurt by the way the platforms are set: see for instance how many shows are being disappeared because of tax write-offs. @whetstone @gamesbymanuel I sincerely will argue for the ethics of piracy in a world where authors' rights have been supplanted by copyright owners' rights. @Illuminatus @gamesbymanuel I guess, for me, the harm done by the platform is done by the platform to me and the creator; but the harm done by piracy is done by me, to the platform (which I couldn't care less about) but also to the creator. So, particularly for single-creator products like albums or books, I do not pirate. Even though the platform will screw me, I prefer not to screw the creator. Mostly you can sidestep this for books by going through the library. @whetstone @gamesbymanuel We can work around it by getting physical copies, also, as long as companies don't make them disappear because they want to "fence their garden". @Illuminatus @gamesbymanuel I also sometimes think about the possibility of purchasing the broken, fenced version *in addition* to getting a pirated copy. Basically, pay once to send whatever share of that value would go to the creator(s), then pirate to ensure that you do in fact actually *own* the damn thing. @whetstone @gamesbymanuel It is something I have lost the count of the times I've done, including, many times, stuff that I wouldn't have watched/listened to/read in the first place. I got to more artists, specially in music, and bought their CDs through piracy than if I hadn't done it.  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus not disagreeing with the cons of streaming but by this logic anyone attending a play or concert or getting a massage can walk out without paying because they don’t “own” the thing they just experienced @jonahbk @gamesbymanuel That's a disingenuous comparison if ever I saw one. We are not talking about the experience, but of the material ownership of media. Ya had me up until you mentioned "streaming shows" 😇 I do agree on the owning part with the potential for things to disappear because of DRM and the non-ability to download a DRM-free copy of a movie or show that I have purchased. We are buying a license to stream a movie, not to own it. Having said that, I own a lot of movies digitally because I buy the physical copies that come with a code. I haven't once had one of my digital movies removed. Oh definitely not arguing that at any point my digital movies *could* disappear, that's why I buy physical. But, just mentioning that it has not happen since I started collecting movies and it's been a long time. I do want the movie studios to be more like music studios -- when I buy digital music, I'm good with it because I can download it DRM-free in FLAC and I own that copy. Movies should be the same way. @mookie @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus I haven't had a digital movie removed, but I have had one altered. I had a digital copy of one of the Marvel movies and they pulled all the original special features from my copy and replaced them with a 10 year studio anniversary documentary. I abandoned digital-only purchases after that. @seibelsays @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus Oh noes! That stinks. I rarely buy digital unless it's ridiculously cheap and is a movie that I wouldn't care if I lost. I buy all my movies physical and the digital code is just a nice add-on. @seibelsays  indeed. when "ownership" of a book/movie became a very limited, unilaterally revokable "right to use" license, with all the costs but none of the legal benefits of purchase, copyright owners shouldn't be surprised at a pushback from consumers.  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus That quote is awesome indeed. But even if you own a copy: "Copying is not theft!" @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus You don't "own" anything on a streaming service. You only have a digital key to access that content. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus @stevewfolds Bandcamp is lovely because they give you CD quality audio from the jump, even if you're just downloading. I hope they never stop.  If you see a game on Steam, check GoG. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus There isn't much in the modern marketplace I hate more than subscription models. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus I have hundreds of books in my kindle that I can’t pass to my friends @tahoegirl @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus I completely agree, but I do reject the term "piracy." It's file sharing. Copying is not stealing! Especially in an era of increasing corporate control. *At best* you could call it unauthorized redistribution, but the justification for prohibiting reproduction is flimsy. ☠️ 🏴☠️  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus I think this tax law should be changed to benefit only if the movie/show enter the public domain @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus I agree, 100%. If, once you've paid for a thing, you can't use it where ever, when ever you want to, without interference from the company you purchased it from, you don't own it. The general public has been actively conditioned to believe otherwise.  I'm not pirating all the stuff from Netflix, I am preemptively protecting them from being lost. 40 years from now, we could end up hunting for old episodes of Star Trek like we do Classic Doctor Who. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus @bobthomson70 Unfortunately, while this may be a popular soundbite, it's not a fair comparison and ignores the many areas where you pay for something but don't own it afterwards. I see one of two already mentioned by other people in the thread. @gamesbymanuel @drulum @Illuminatus think the problem is when you pay for a song/album or movie, those old enough equate it to paying for the physical media version so expect ownership as long as the medium is useable. @bobthomson70 @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus Indeed, but that would be a different claim. @drulum @Illuminatus @gamesbymanuel streaming more like joining a great paid for library and they randomly stop stocking books for some tax writeoff. @drulum @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus including coming to your house and taking the book you are currently reading from your hands. @bobthomson70 I'll stop flooding those not engaging. Don't forget, when you buy a CD, you do NOT own it. You own a license to play it under certain very specific circumstances.  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus My experience with video games: I once bought a game on my phone from the Play Store. Meanwhile, the developer was in talks with Nintendo to port their game on the Switch. They did so, but not without removing the game from the store. What a BS move! I had another fright when Quantum Break was temporarily removed from the Microsoft store. gog.com for me since game packs can be downloaded and stored on your own computer. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus TV shows or subscription services are probably not the best example because people pay for access, not the content itself. But it's a valid concern for other digital goods like ebooks or comic books bought on Amazon that can be deleted or becomes inaccessible without an Amazon app or device. It would have been a lot easier and quicker to just pirate the 1400 comic books I bought over the years on Comixology than downloading them one by one from Amazons backup links. @chris @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus Good point! I didn't even realize that shows are streaming-only these days 😬 I can't seem to buy Disney's Willow Season 1 anywhere (at least not in Europe) The Willow DVDs showing up on Etsy seem... non-official. I've lived by this credo for years. "You wouldn't steal a car, would you steal a game?" Well, you stole it from me first, so who's morally wrong here? * I've paid for Chrono Trigger 6 separate times. * I own more historical copies of Mario and Zelda than I care to think about. No thanks. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus best media to save is CD, DVD, Blue-ray, Pen-Drive, HDD (not SSD). Unfortunately for games we have stupid DRM and Denuovo, everything just to praise the investors. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus and all these walled gardens make it so hard to know where to watch what, let alone with consistent quality. Having a seedbox and private torrent tracker is actually a much better experience when it is set up. I'm trying very hard not to illegally purchase movies anymore (now that I make my own money), but sometime I just don't understand how the f**k I'm suppose to watch a movie.  By that logic piracy isnt stealing, its more like forced slavery since your stealing peoples time rather than a physical object. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus absolutely. accountability is to be inculcated within the policies. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus Also, stealing, by its definition, deprives the original owner of the possession being stolen. So unless you break into the movie studio and take the master file, you are just duplicating. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus I like digital, but I definitely prefer the form of digital where the file is located on my device and can't be disappeared by anyone but me. I get the convenience of not needing shelf space with the security of actually owning it. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus it's not stealing bc you aren't depriving the "owner" of the product. You're just making a copy. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus the funniest part is that the screenshot is from YouTube ReVanced, to avoid ads on YT  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus So much this. I've been trying to explain to some folks even older than me (And I'm a card carrying old at this point :) how there's a generational gap happening where us older folks pay for media and younger folks largely just ... Don't. And honestly? I don't blame them one bit. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus Worst offender is iTunes Match. @gamesbymanuel@peoplemaking.games @Illuminatus@mstdn.social Live service everything has become a plague 👆 This ignores the idea of leasing/renting, but it's funny so I boosted it anyway, because fuck companies that yank access to media people enjoy for business purposes when we don't own anything anymore.  @gamesbymanuel So it’s ethical to pirate anything that is for rent, but not for sale? I don’t have to take sides in that debate to know that logic is fundamentally flawed. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus old stuff isn't safe either, turns out Lifetime Licence can mean Lifetime of the Licence when it suits @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus So if you are paying to rent a car and then I take the car from you, I'm not stealing? Piracy hurts the people who own the property rights. Disagreeing with the property rights model is a totally separate issue and I'm totally with you on that, but this is just not a good analogy. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus When people as why I still by #DVD and #Bluray, this is the reason.  I’ve gone to rewatch things on Amazon prime that I could swear I had previously purchased but no longer own, and no record of me buying it. There’s only so many times I can assume I am mistaken. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus @gamesbymanuel Well, that's the beauty of capitalism. Renting, leasing, licensing, and subscriptions are terrific inventions. It allows non-productive members of society and people with significant financial resources to charge you a fee for using something and turning a profit. Eliminating the second-hand market, planned obsolescence, and making ownership difficult or impossible helped a lot. "Piracy can't be stealing if paying for it isn't owning" - What a silly statement. We routinely pay for the use of some resource without then owning the resource. Piracy is stealing. If the content is owned by a multimillion dollar company or not doesn’t change that principle. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus this makes sense at first glance. But can "squatting" be "stealing" if renting isn't owning? @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus This is why when I purchase an e-book for example I immediately strip off DRM and save it. Folks will say well that's illegal. I say so was sodomy and still is in many places, but fuck that law also :)  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus @genderfaerie @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus This was my issue the moment Steam even came out. Just waiting for that platform and my 300+ games to be taken away again. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus ahh, I see. Overall, I'm happy to have a fair exchange of money for services but I agree with an underlying point that streaming services keep taking more and giving less. Arrr!!! @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus that's exactly how I felt with light room on osx before selling that old Mac I used to have. The software wasn't working anymore after multiple updates and I had to "rent" it. That's when I moved completely to #darktable @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus it is neither stealing or piracy, it is copyright infringement, in most civil cases it is non-criminal violation.And as for moral case it has been established many times it is just right to side violating publisher rights for the sake of public good.  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus Well streaming services is mostly like a Blockbuster store but with a monthly membership where you can just go and pick up what ever you want to see and the return it. You never buy a movie/series there. Then there are services that offer you to buy movies. Like Apple has one where I bought a few movies that I then own. Sadly that type of services doesn’t offer to buy a season of series. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus private property only apply to scarce things, if there ins't scarcity like the case of digital things private propety makes no sense. The exception are cryptocurrencies where there is digital scarcity. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus the author is poking at the issue that Paying for digital content is never owning. We’re only ever paying for the right to stream, thus any argument of piracy = “stealing” is not and never will be accurate for digital content. It’s copyright infringement... Not that anyone needs to justify piracy today. Piracy can only go away when everyone has equal access to information. Until then, as long as the rich get richer, Piracy will be a moral imperative. Raise the flag. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus I agree, but the quote doesn't work because there's loads of stuff we pay for that isn't something we tangibly own. A hotel pillow. A cinema. An engineer to fix your boiler. On my end, even though the usual venues for self publishing say that you don't own the copy of the item, if it's *my* stuff, I say you do. An ebook is just the same as a paper book for all practical matters. If you can keep up with the file, it's your file. "Piracy can't be stealing if paying for it isn't owning" Traduction largement adaptée : C'est tout à fait ça ! Rapport aux contenus qu'on a payé mais qui disparaissent sans prévenir de votre compte ou appareil.  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus if that is the case (and it is); knowing that most content will disappear in the future, piracy is a legitimate attempt of preservation. It's ironic how diffuse content is nowadays compared with the past. Back then you had a cassette, cartridge or disc to store. Nowadays you have to trust that your online service doesn't close or removes the content. @gamesbymanuel of course when the bail out markets and let people lose their homes they are stealing your home you are buying to favor the banks who don't own the money you're paying them to invest in pirate companies that block the downloads you think you own. Or something like that.  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus in many cases digital content is not even possible to access legally. For instance, want to watch classic #DrWho in Finland on your laptop? There is no way to do that outside of piracy. Even most of the new episodes have disappeared and are unavailable from any streaming service. A lot of other material is the same. And even if it is available, chances are it’s on another streaming service which you don’t want a whole subscription for. @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus what about the creator?The writer, the musician? I’m often asked where my books can be downloaded for free yet writing is how I make a living. Piracy is definitely stealing!  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus Streaming is a movie rental store flatrate where some movies or shows might disappear from the shelf at one time. The reason why a movie disappeared might differ in this comparison.  @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus it wouldn't be stealing either way because even in the case you did own it when you bought it, you pirating does not deprive anyone of anything
that's an interesting take. it makes us wonder what we actually pay for when we subscribe to digital products and platforms and they fail us @gamesbymanuel @Illuminatus absolutely! I’ve been burned several times when digital movies I purchased went poof. Now everything “purchased” is now pirated so I have a permanent copy. |
Gregory's Server
For a while now digital ownership has felt more like borrowing but that is not how it's advertised.
Piracy seems to be the only way to make sure things stick around.
And don't get me started on the blockchain, as those things would still need to be hosted somewhere that can disappear just as well. That is a solution looking for a problem.