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Top-level
 @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @david @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris Putting aside the commercialization & data harvesting of the fediverse with #Meta that was introduced in that discussion, my fear is, will #Mastodon instances of 100, 1000, 5K, 10K or even 50K be able to withstand the replication data size and cost required with the introduction of 2.35 billion monthly active #Instagram users, even if just a small percentage uses Meta's #Fediverse #ActivityPub offering. 134 comments
@HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy Smaller instances may need to deFederate and just silence in order to control hosting costs. Hmm...  @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy I am not enought into server tech, but if they must defederated just from the #MegaInstances, would this be enough? @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris Well, Meta, WordPress, Tumblr, Mozilla, Medium. All the big money players are arriving with all their millions of users hauling images! Eeesh! @Qazm @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy That would be grand, is the resources issue chiefly a none-issue, then? @Qazm @david @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris@qoto.org @davetroy I guess I’m just preemptively assuming Facebook will be misbehaving. @markearnest @Qazm @david @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy What is the old saying? "When they show you who they are, believe them..." @markearnest @Qazm @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy Without question. They've already taken over this conversation! @markearnest @Qazm @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy "...preemptively assuming Facebook will be misbehaving." I think the incentives to either feast on #Mastodon or take it down are just far to great for that not to happen. Probably even within a year. @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell Now that is a real life concern. It's about to get REALLY EXPENSIVE to run your own Mastodon instance. Yikes! @david @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris@qoto.org Fediblock all the Meta things! @markearnest @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren I think that's what's going to have to happen for smaller instances in order to remain economically sane and safe. @david @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell Also just because it’s the right thing to do. I didn’t start a server to pipe marketing data to Zuckerberg. @markearnest @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell That's the plan of Big Money. They want to find everyone, API them, and put them in their database. It's going to become an uncomfortable, sticky, mess and be super un-Federated friendly fast.  @markearnest Even if Meta’s ActivityPub host is not allowed access there will be ways to access nearly all of the posts because most are public and there is no encryption on private posts. Privacy will be a concern that must be handled by the ActivityPub protocols as it evolves. @paul @markearnest Given that servers hold everything in a database which admins can access everything there really is an opportunity to sell that data. We share these posts publicly, so there is no expectation that it won’t be used. It is easy to link my data together via LinkedIn, GitHub, Linktree, etc. It is fairly easy to build a profile and target users. ActivityPub is not a place for privacy. @brennansv fair point, but I see no reason why I should make it any easier for Meta. I’m assuming they will be a bad actor on the fediverse based on how they behave everywhere else. @david @markearnest @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell What happens when #TwitterMigragion users on Mastodon instances now, but have IG accounts, give up and just stick with the Meta's Fediverse with their Instagram accounts because it is more stable, more of their followers, etc. It will be a ghost town for smaller instances that block Meta. @paul @markearnest @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell Yes, and that's what happens when a good, open, idea gets exploited by Big Money. They aren't here to have fun. They are here to figure out how to either break you or make you join them. They can overwhelm just with the firehose of their data dumps from users. @david @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell Like google with xmpp. Embrace, extend, extinguish @paul @david @markearnest @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell Agreed. Another argument for defederating #MetasInstances. @david @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris I am self-hosted but have several dedicated accounts, including @hashtaggames where I play one game per night. We interact with several hundred users nightly from over 50 instances. I made the mistake of following people that follow that account, which is solely dedicated to the game. As a result, my instance data ballooned to over 50GB. I had to trim how long I retain data. Still at 30GB. @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames Ouch! That's another thing users who are not Admins, and who never pay, don't realize: Your stuff isn't saved forever here! There's a time limit and then it's gone forever. Unless you what -- bookmark or favorite a post -- then it doesn't get deleted? I can't remember. @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames Which remindes me, I should save my stuff here, too, as I did on the Birdsite. @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames The sad part is you can export your instance data, but not upload it into a new instance. Insane! I read that is something they are working on. Not sure how advanced it is or how it will play out but it is being discussed, at least. @paul @david @HistoPol Meta isn't doing so well these days...SO they're going the old school Microsoft route of Embrace, Extend & Extinguish. Be wary. Hopefully they decide to play nice, but I suspect it's more subversion than anything. Jack Dorsey had plans like that too. I HOPE it leads to a real expansion of the fediverse, BUT I suspect this is a ploy to end it. Future Money incentivizes this move. @antonioserrata @paul @HistoPol Big Money never plays nice. We've already seen this scenario and we likely know how it will end before it begins! This is an open space by definition and they're going to sit down hard in it until they're satisfied they've drained all the value they can take with them. @antonioserrata @david @HistoPol This reminds me of the murder of Usenet and the recurring attempted murder of RSS. @paul @antonioserrata @HistoPol I still mourn the loss of Google Reader. Feedly is a good replacement, though. Ok, so I am not the only one thinking this! #EmbraceExtendExtinguish is the strategy, and thinking of the many other nice hardware and software technologies that were just acquired and then put into the locker is extensive. possibly: I was told that importing has been extensively discussed, but isn't really happening for a variety of reasons. Another person provided this link: Ok. I'm told the short answer importing isn't happening because it's a liability issue for Admins. Whatever that means. I've asked for the long answer. @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames "...but not upload it". I think I read that it is possible. Besides, with "software" anything is possible, in particular with #FOSS.--You just need to find one up-to-the-task programmer PO'ed enough that he solves that. It might not be available on all instances, though. @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames I just asked. I'll see what the answer is. I was told by my host that export is only there to satisfy GDPR requirements to "take your data with you" and that's where it begins and ends. Perfunctory in process only. @david @HistoPol Yes, I sent you several replies about it. It isn't going to happen officially in Mastodon. I read them as I was typing. I'm slower with my Parkinsons than people are with discussions and many times I am behind on the progress of the discussions. Got it! I'll remember that, thanks. Here's the long answer: Posts on one server may be fine, but importing them on another server might violate local laws due to hate speech, etc. Country to country, etc. That's the effect of the Fediverse: Not all local instance jurisdictions are created equal, so, no universal import option. Right now, an Admin can't take on the possible liability, but they're thinking about letting that happen in Mastodon itself. @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames Let*s see. I also had (originally) thought about migrating my #Birdsite legacy here, but decided against it. Not for technical reasons, though. Converting the data should be feasible, with some effort. @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames I agree with you! I guess it depends where you live and what international laws are at play. I don't know how WordPress gets away with allowing imports, but such is life, I guess. @paul The ActivityPub protocols will have to evolve to support caching mechanisms to handle the load. Even without Big Tech being involved since so many people have decided to use #Fediverse apps now. I expect transient caches of just 24 hours could reduce the load considerably. And when a new post triggers pushes the payload could include a random set of other hosts which have been pushed which could allow them to share the new post. @paul I may also create separate accounts for isolated islands of servers which would be a closed community in a way just to keep the load and traffic down. Universities, neighborhoods and other small groups could run their own islands which could be semi-private much like Slack and Discord are being used. What I’d like to do use my computer I have at home. It is online 24/7 on broadband. I could link my account(s) so that those servers can store data on it and when I use clients I can largely use my own computer as a server. I could even offer to host 10 or more guests with rate limiting. Many others could do the same to reduce the load. Servers would queue up the work and handle it under their constraints. With my account I could even list my home server so it could get pushes directly and offer that data to the server(s) I use. It would ensure I get posts quickly and offload the load on servers. @paul @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @david @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris Good Question, how expansive does the Fediverse wish to be??? @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @david @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris If democratization is a concern, bear in mind how much cash it requires to host a huge host; why not impose a nominal per-user license fee starting at, say, 20K users that is used to directly pay small instances' hosting (not, however, paying those instances cash directly)? Meta, for example, could finance thousands of small instances. There could be a board to insure independent hosting maybe. |
Gregory's Server
@paul
That is an excellent point. On a more sinister note: could that be the objective to get rid of the faster-growing competition?
My take after our discussion on #SilentSunday is that the #MegaInstance(s) should be either downright defederated or that there be a rationing of access (e.g. couple of thousand a day), while leaving the native registering option open (of course, what else).
@fediversereport @fediversenews @david @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris
@davetroy
@paul
That is an excellent point. On a more sinister note: could that be the objective to get rid of the faster-growing competition?
My take after our discussion on #SilentSunday is that the #MegaInstance(s) should be either downright defederated or that there be a rationing of access (e.g. couple of thousand a day), while leaving the native registering option open (of course, what else).