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HistoPol (#HP)

@david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy

I am not enought into server tech, but if they must defederated just from the #MegaInstances, would this be enough?

12 Mar 2023 at 20:29 | Wall-to-wall | Open on mastodon.social
38 comments
David Boles

@HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris
@davetroy

Well, Meta, WordPress, Tumblr, Mozilla, Medium. All the big money players are arriving with all their millions of users hauling images! Eeesh!

12 Mar 2023 at 20:34 | Open on boles.xyz
Qazm

@david @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy I don't think it would be necessary to defederate. Instances don't have to accept any random content pushed their way in the first place, just what the local users want to read. To my knowledge, current software only sends out media to servers where there are followers of that specific creator, in the first place.

If Facebook's software misbehaves or something like boost and favourite notifications become overwhelming then yes, partial filtering may be in order, but generally an instance's processing requirements scale mainly with its own members' activity and interests.

@david @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy I don't think it would be necessary to defederate. Instances don't have to accept any random content pushed their way in the first place, just what the local users want to read. To my knowledge, current software only sends out media to servers where there are followers of that specific creator, in the first place.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:42 | Open on tiggi.es
HistoPol (#HP)
Qazm

@HistoPol @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy Mostly. Unlike on blockchain-based systems like Nostr and Secure Scuttlebug, ActivityPub (that is: the protocol underpinning Mastodon federation) can support an infinitely scaling network. It does this by never pulling in content unless it is (likely) needed by a local client, and by discarding duplicates of data that aren't needed anymore (like old copies of remote media. Clients can fetch a fresh copy from the origin directly, if necessary).

Normally, a large instance in fact makes processing a little easier for others, as a post needs to be pushed only once to reach all followers on a particular remote instance.

There are some exceptions to this, like boost and favourite notifications that come back on viral posts, so I hope most servers will eventually gain some way to aggregate those into lightweight "X boosts, Y favourites" messages after a threshold. That's more user-friendly than having a bunch of ★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★… in ones notifications column, anyway.

@HistoPol @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy Mostly. Unlike on blockchain-based systems like Nostr and Secure Scuttlebug, ActivityPub (that is: the protocol underpinning Mastodon federation) can support an infinitely scaling network. It does this by never pulling in content unless it is (likely) needed by a local client, and by discarding duplicates of data that aren't needed anymore (like old copies of remote media. Clients can fetch a...

12 Mar 2023 at 21:20 | Open on tiggi.es
David Boles
Qazm replied to David

@david @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy Sorry, I didn't see this at first.

Relays are mainly to merge participating instances' Local Timelines into each one's Federated Timeline, in addition to the posts coming in through normal remote follows, which also helps to fill trending tags. It's a good way to make those discovery features more useful in a group of smaller instances with similar topics, but I'm pretty sure they always increase resource use even if they could be used to send messages to multiple direct recipients at once. (I haven't checked whether the software actually does that, but my hunch is that in many cases it does not.)

What I'm talking about is a server acting as (lower-case) relay for its local users. Let's say you have a thousand followers on mastodon.social. When you make an Unlisted post, then to reach all those followers, your server needs to push that action to that instance only once, and it'll take care to show the post to all interested users by itself.

If you attach an image, your instance needs to give it to the other one only once too, through a similar mechanism, not once for each follower. The other instance should normally cache a there-local copy for a while.

If you @-mention a few people from the same remote instance directly, they can all appear as recipients (to be notified) in the same single server-to-server message.

@david @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy Sorry, I didn't see this at first.

Relays are mainly to merge participating instances' Local Timelines into each one's Federated Timeline, in addition to the posts coming in through normal remote follows, which also helps to fill trending tags. It's a good way to make those discovery features more useful in a group of smaller instances with similar topics, but I'm pretty sure they always increase...

13 Mar 2023 at 0:09 | Open on tiggi.es
DELETED

@Qazm @david @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris@qoto.org @davetroy I guess I’m just preemptively assuming Facebook will be misbehaving.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:48 | Open on mstdn.mystikos.org
Paul Chambers
David Boles
HistoPol (#HP)

@markearnest @Qazm @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy

"...preemptively assuming Facebook will be misbehaving."

I think the incentives to either feast on #Mastodon or take it down are just far to great for that not to happen. Probably even within a year.

12 Mar 2023 at 21:02 | Open on mastodon.social
David Boles
Jay Thoden van Velzen ☁️​🛡️​:lolsob: replied to David
Paul Chambers replied to Jay Thoden van Velzen ☁️​🛡️​:lolsob:

@jaythvv @david @HistoPol @markearnest @Qazm @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy

FediGram or FediBook

Someone with excess funds should start copyrighting / trademarking different play on names to keep Meta's grubby hands away from them.

12 Mar 2023 at 21:11 | Open on oldfriends.live
David Boles replied to Paul

@paul @jaythvv @HistoPol @markearnest @Qazm @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy

Remember when Twitter took the "@Chase" username that a guy had for years and gave it to to the bank instead? We'll see a lot of that happening here.

12 Mar 2023 at 21:14 | Open on boles.xyz
Panama Red replied to David

@david @paul @jaythvv @HistoPol @markearnest @Qazm @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy I have a friend who's Dixie on the bird site. Dixie Cups offered her real money for the handle; she turned them down. She chose the handle because years ago she took a Facebook quiz that pronounced her "100% Dixie" (i.e., culturally very much of the southern U.S.).

12 Mar 2023 at 21:57 | Open on mstdn.social
David Boles replied to Panama
Panama Red replied to David
David Boles replied to Panama
Panama Red replied to David

@david @paul @jaythvv @HistoPol @markearnest @Qazm @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy She could counter by telling them to take Dixiecups or Dixie_Cups, both of which are taken but appear to never be used.

12 Mar 2023 at 22:22 | Open on mstdn.social
David Boles replied to Panama

@panamared27401 @paul @jaythvv @HistoPol @markearnest @Qazm @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy

Taken, but never used -- used to be sacrosanct. It didn't matter, Twitter claimed, if the username was being used or not. It was taken in perpetuity.

Then the Chase thing happened -- and Twitter suddenly said that usernames don't belong to users, they are, and have been, and always will be, the property of Twitter and they alone decide who gets to use them.

12 Mar 2023 at 22:24 | Open on boles.xyz
Panama Red replied to David

@david I vaguely recall that. I sort of figured it was being handled the same way that, for example, I couldn't have just snatched up mcdonalds.com as a domain name back when domain names first became a thing.

12 Mar 2023 at 22:28 | Open on mstdn.social
David Boles replied to Panama

@panamared27401

Domain names are a little different. They're much harder to take back.

I'm glad your friend kept her name! That's good news for the day!

12 Mar 2023 at 22:34 | Open on boles.xyz
Qazm

@HistoPol @markearnest @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy For what it's worth, most forms of plausibly useful misbehaviour on this protocol would cost Facebook more than the other instances in terms of operating costs.

The one nasty thing they could do is make their client fetch media always from its origin rather than their cache, but that *should* be possible to mitigate through technical means.
(In the absolute worst case it may be necessary to make images available mainly through Cloudflare, which charges for storage rather than downloads and can easily absorb that kind of access.)

@HistoPol @markearnest @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy For what it's worth, most forms of plausibly useful misbehaviour on this protocol would cost Facebook more than the other instances in terms of operating costs.

The one nasty thing they could do is make their client fetch media always from its origin rather than their cache, but that *should* be possible to mitigate through technical means.
(In the absolute worst case it may be necessary to...

12 Mar 2023 at 21:45 | Open on tiggi.es
David Boles replied to Qazm

@Qazm @HistoPol @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy

These are super fascinating problems that will have to be resolved -- but who, how and what will do the negotiating? Is there a Central Control to gatekeep these issues?

12 Mar 2023 at 21:50 | Open on boles.xyz
HistoPol (#HP) replied to David

@david @Qazm @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy

Apart from @Gargron, who works for a small non-profit company, I would not know who else.

I might become necessary that the big instances of the #Fediverse elect some form of representative, maybe like the #EuropeanCommission,

12 Mar 2023 at 21:57 | Open on mastodon.social
Cynthia Morse Linton replied to HistoPol
@HistoPol No, he’s got another guy now. He has a proper title, but I get the impression he’s the one that has to talk to the Venture. Although some of them may be a little cash strapped at the moment. <I will not snicker, I will not….>

@Gargron @Bluedepth @juneussell @davetroy @paul @markearnest @Qazm @darren @david @fediversereport
12 Mar 2023 at 22:02 | Open on venera.social
David Boles replied to HistoPol

@HistoPol @Qazm @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy @Gargron

Yes, it's Gargron's party, but does he want to be the figurehead leader and ultimate gatekeeper? I think he should be that and more, but my sense of it is that he doesn't want to be that person.

12 Mar 2023 at 22:07 | Open on boles.xyz
HistoPol (#HP) replied to David

@david @Qazm @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy @Gargron

The nice thing about being the general manager of a company is that you can appoint others to do your bidding.

Also, isn't there something like a "Global Fediverse Association" or something?

12 Mar 2023 at 22:11 | Open on mastodon.social
Qazm replied to David

@david @HistoPol @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy @Gargron It's not really his to control, technically.

Mastodon is just the most popular compatible implementation in Western countries, but there are at least half a dozen good alternatives that already exist. Basically depends a bit on what kind of jank you're okay with personally, since they all behave a bit differently, and how you want to use it. Mastodon is "sort of Twitter-flavoured" access to the network, but that's not the only approach.

The ActivityPub protocol discussions are out of his hands too, since that's managed by the W3C (who also do the same for HTML and so on) and afaik did not originate from Mastodon.

@david @HistoPol @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy @Gargron It's not really his to control, technically.

Mastodon is just the most popular compatible implementation in Western countries, but there are at least half a dozen good alternatives that already exist. Basically depends a bit on what kind of jank you're okay with personally, since they all behave a bit differently, and how you want to use it. Mastodon is "sort of Twitter-flavoured"...

12 Mar 2023 at 22:19 | Open on tiggi.es
David Boles replied to Qazm

@Qazm @HistoPol @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy @Gargron

This is all new to me. It will be interesting to see if there is any negotiation involved, or if it's just take the software and make it what you will. Fork it if you have to, and welcome.

12 Mar 2023 at 22:22 | Open on boles.xyz
Qazm replied to David

@david @HistoPol @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy Most reporting gets this wrong, unfortunately, by focusing on Mastodon in particular. The ActivityPub info (main site at activitypub.rocks) isn't all that approachable unless you're a software developer already working with distributed systems to some extent, and the W3C rarely markets anything to the general public.

If you scroll down on fediverse.to, you can filter by a number of "Fediverse Software" implementations. These aren't necessarily all fully compatible, though.
For example, Mastodon and Bookwyrm exchange only direct messages but not timeline posts or book reviews (as of now. Nothing stops Mastodon from accepting book reviews later on, and it doesn't need any specific help from Bookwyrm to start doing so. That's the beauty of ActivityPub in my eyes).

Edit: Oh, and venera.social/profile/fedivers is a good example too, of course. We're technically talking in a Friendica group post's comments right now, even if it doesn't necessarily look like that from our point of view.
(Use the "view original page" function in case this opens like a Mastodon profile at first, likely in the triple dot menu in most clients.)

@david @HistoPol @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy Most reporting gets this wrong, unfortunately, by focusing on Mastodon in particular. The ActivityPub info (main site at activitypub.rocks) isn't all that approachable unless you're a software developer already working with distributed systems to some extent, and the W3C rarely markets anything to the general public.

12 Mar 2023 at 22:48 | Open on tiggi.es
Bluedepth replied to Qazm

@Qazm I appreciate all the fascinating detail you’re sharing. You explain very well. Thank you. 🙏

12 Mar 2023 at 22:23 | Open on mastodon.social
Qazm replied to Bluedepth

@Bluedepth You're welcome, and thank you 🙂

Runs a bit in the family I think; I'm a teachers' son who somehow ended up doing mainly software development so far. (These skills are quite useful when writing documentation and reports.)
I'm trying to branch out a little for my own sake though, so who knows what the future holds.

I'd say my number one advice for explaining well is to avoid jargon and to be open-minded about which common ground to start with, then build from there without going into too much theoretical detail. (If anyone wants to explore more, they can follow those links, after all, but that shouldn't be necessary to see the main point.)

It's harder to do online than in person, since there's no live feedback and fewer clues where to start, but you can still take some shortcuts based on the context of the discussion.

That said, sorry for all those edit notifications 😅
I'm pretty typo-prone especially on my phone.

@Bluedepth You're welcome, and thank you 🙂

Runs a bit in the family I think; I'm a teachers' son who somehow ended up doing mainly software development so far. (These skills are quite useful when writing documentation and reports.)
I'm trying to branch out a little for my own sake though, so who knows what the future holds.

12 Mar 2023 at 23:37 | Open on tiggi.es
Qazm replied to David

@david @HistoPol @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy There's distributed control to some extent. Mastodon has *some* safety measures built into it to automatically rate-limit access from one source for example, though I don't know their extent or details. If there are too many requests then errors are returned, so there's an incentive to cache some data locally aside from latency.

(Some local caching is most likely also preferable just in terms of operating cost already. Fetching all that remote information live every time increases latency, which increases parallel in-progress incoming requests, which increases resource requirements significantly.)

@david @HistoPol @markearnest @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy There's distributed control to some extent. Mastodon has *some* safety measures built into it to automatically rate-limit access from one source for example, though I don't know their extent or details. If there are too many requests then errors are returned, so there's an incentive to cache some data locally aside from latency.

12 Mar 2023 at 21:59 | Open on tiggi.es
HistoPol (#HP) replied to Qazm
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