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Fediverse Report

New: Meta plans on joining the fediverse – the responses

You've probably read the news that Meta is planning to make a decentralized social network. This understandably lead to lots of different responses; some positive, some strongly negative, or just reflecting on earlier encounters between open-source software and Big Tech. I've collected some of the main types of responses that I've encountered in this article.

@fediversenews

Read it at: fediversereport.com/meta-plans

12 Mar 2023 at 18:41 | Open on mastodon.social
152 comments
HistoPol (#HP)

@fediversereport @fediversenews

We have just had a very insightful discussion here about this exciting but also worrying news:

@david, @Bluedepth, @darren, @juneussell
@volkris

boles.xyz/@david/1099992992131

12 Mar 2023 at 19:31 | Open on mastodon.social
Paul Chambers

@HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @david @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris

Putting aside the commercialization & data harvesting of the fediverse with #Meta that was introduced in that discussion, my fear is, will #Mastodon instances of 100, 1000, 5K, 10K or even 50K be able to withstand the replication data size and cost required with the introduction of 2.35 billion monthly active #Instagram users, even if just a small percentage uses Meta's #Fediverse #ActivityPub offering.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:02 | Open on oldfriends.live
HistoPol (#HP)

@paul

That is an excellent point. On a more sinister note: could that be the objective to get rid of the faster-growing competition?

My take after our discussion on #SilentSunday is that the #MegaInstance(s) should be either downright defederated or that there be a rationing of access (e.g. couple of thousand a day), while leaving the native registering option open (of course, what else).

@fediversereport @fediversenews @david @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris
@davetroy

@paul

That is an excellent point. On a more sinister note: could that be the objective to get rid of the faster-growing competition?

My take after our discussion on #SilentSunday is that the #MegaInstance(s) should be either downright defederated or that there be a rationing of access (e.g. couple of thousand a day), while leaving the native registering option open (of course, what else).

12 Mar 2023 at 20:07 | Open on mastodon.social
David Boles

@HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy

Smaller instances may need to deFederate and just silence in order to control hosting costs. Hmm...

12 Mar 2023 at 20:22 | Open on boles.xyz
HistoPol (#HP)

@david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy

I am not enought into server tech, but if they must defederated just from the #MegaInstances, would this be enough?

12 Mar 2023 at 20:29 | Open on mastodon.social
David Boles

@HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris
@davetroy

Well, Meta, WordPress, Tumblr, Mozilla, Medium. All the big money players are arriving with all their millions of users hauling images! Eeesh!

12 Mar 2023 at 20:34 | Open on boles.xyz
Qazm

@david @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy I don't think it would be necessary to defederate. Instances don't have to accept any random content pushed their way in the first place, just what the local users want to read. To my knowledge, current software only sends out media to servers where there are followers of that specific creator, in the first place.

If Facebook's software misbehaves or something like boost and favourite notifications become overwhelming then yes, partial filtering may be in order, but generally an instance's processing requirements scale mainly with its own members' activity and interests.

@david @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @davetroy I don't think it would be necessary to defederate. Instances don't have to accept any random content pushed their way in the first place, just what the local users want to read. To my knowledge, current software only sends out media to servers where there are followers of that specific creator, in the first place.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:42 | Open on tiggi.es
HistoPol (#HP)
DELETED

@Qazm @david @HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris@qoto.org @davetroy I guess I’m just preemptively assuming Facebook will be misbehaving.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:48 | Open on mstdn.mystikos.org
Paul Chambers
David Boles
HistoPol (#HP)

@markearnest @Qazm @david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @davetroy

"...preemptively assuming Facebook will be misbehaving."

I think the incentives to either feast on #Mastodon or take it down are just far to great for that not to happen. Probably even within a year.

12 Mar 2023 at 21:02 | Open on mastodon.social
David Boles

@paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell
@volkris

Now that is a real life concern. It's about to get REALLY EXPENSIVE to run your own Mastodon instance. Yikes!

12 Mar 2023 at 20:21 | Open on boles.xyz
DELETED
David Boles

@markearnest @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren
@juneussell

I think that's what's going to have to happen for smaller instances in order to remain economically sane and safe.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:33 | Open on boles.xyz
DELETED

@david @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell Also just because it’s the right thing to do. I didn’t start a server to pipe marketing data to Zuckerberg.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:34 | Open on mstdn.mystikos.org
David Boles

@markearnest @paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell

That's the plan of Big Money. They want to find everyone, API them, and put them in their database. It's going to become an uncomfortable, sticky, mess and be super un-Federated friendly fast.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:38 | Open on boles.xyz
Brennan Stehling

@markearnest Even if Meta’s ActivityPub host is not allowed access there will be ways to access nearly all of the posts because most are public and there is no encryption on private posts. Privacy will be a concern that must be handled by the ActivityPub protocols as it evolves. @paul

12 Mar 2023 at 20:42 | Open on sfba.social
DELETED
Brennan Stehling

@markearnest Given that servers hold everything in a database which admins can access everything there really is an opportunity to sell that data. We share these posts publicly, so there is no expectation that it won’t be used. It is easy to link my data together via LinkedIn, GitHub, Linktree, etc. It is fairly easy to build a profile and target users. ActivityPub is not a place for privacy.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:57 | Open on sfba.social
DELETED

@brennansv fair point, but I see no reason why I should make it any easier for Meta. I’m assuming they will be a bad actor on the fediverse based on how they behave everywhere else.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:59 | Open on mstdn.mystikos.org
Paul Chambers

@david @markearnest @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell

What happens when #TwitterMigragion users on Mastodon instances now, but have IG accounts, give up and just stick with the Meta's Fediverse with their Instagram accounts because it is more stable, more of their followers, etc. It will be a ghost town for smaller instances that block Meta.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:36 | Open on oldfriends.live
DELETED
David Boles

@paul @markearnest @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell

Yes, and that's what happens when a good, open, idea gets exploited by Big Money. They aren't here to have fun. They are here to figure out how to either break you or make you join them. They can overwhelm just with the firehose of their data dumps from users.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:41 | Open on boles.xyz
HistoPol (#HP)
Paul Chambers

@david @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris

I am self-hosted but have several dedicated accounts, including @hashtaggames where I play one game per night. We interact with several hundred users nightly from over 50 instances.

I made the mistake of following people that follow that account, which is solely dedicated to the game.

As a result, my instance data ballooned to over 50GB. I had to trim how long I retain data. Still at 30GB.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:29 | Open on oldfriends.live
David Boles

@paul @HistoPol @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames

Ouch! That's another thing users who are not Admins, and who never pay, don't realize: Your stuff isn't saved forever here! There's a time limit and then it's gone forever.

Unless you what -- bookmark or favorite a post -- then it doesn't get deleted? I can't remember.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:37 | Open on boles.xyz
HistoPol (#HP)
David Boles

@HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames

The sad part is you can export your instance data, but not upload it into a new instance. Insane!

12 Mar 2023 at 20:43 | Open on boles.xyz
Paul Chambers

@david @HistoPol

I read that is something they are working on. Not sure how advanced it is or how it will play out but it is being discussed, at least.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:44 | Open on oldfriends.live
David Boles

@paul @HistoPol

I'm on the Mastodon Discord server, I should ask.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:45 | Open on boles.xyz
HistoPol (#HP)

@david @paul

Please do. Actually, for me this would have been a dealbreaker to join #mas

I often put a lot of work in #threads and like to link back to them occasionally.
The instance issue being what it is, having a #migrate option for your toots is essential for me.

To hands in business suits shaking hands, the picture torn apart in the middle. "Dealbreaker: A specific issue or thing that will cause an agreement, deal, or relationship to fail or be terminated."
12 Mar 2023 at 20:58 | Open on mastodon.social
DELETED

@paul @david @HistoPol Meta isn't doing so well these days...SO they're going the old school Microsoft route of Embrace, Extend & Extinguish. Be wary. Hopefully they decide to play nice, but I suspect it's more subversion than anything. Jack Dorsey had plans like that too. I HOPE it leads to a real expansion of the fediverse, BUT I suspect this is a ploy to end it. Future Money incentivizes this move.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:50 | Open on masto.ai
David Boles

@antonioserrata @paul @HistoPol

Big Money never plays nice. We've already seen this scenario and we likely know how it will end before it begins!

This is an open space by definition and they're going to sit down hard in it until they're satisfied they've drained all the value they can take with them.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:54 | Open on boles.xyz
DELETED replied to David
Paul Chambers replied to DELETED

@antonioserrata @david @HistoPol

This reminds me of the murder of Usenet and the recurring attempted murder of RSS.

12 Mar 2023 at 21:01 | Open on oldfriends.live
David Boles

@paul @HistoPol

I was told that importing has been extensively discussed, but isn't really happening for a variety of reasons.

Another person provided this link:

github.com/mastodon/mastodon/i

12 Mar 2023 at 20:51 | Open on boles.xyz
David Boles

@paul @HistoPol

Ok. I'm told the short answer importing isn't happening because it's a liability issue for Admins.

Whatever that means.

I've asked for the long answer.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:53 | Open on boles.xyz
HistoPol (#HP)

@david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames

"...but not upload it".

I think I read that it is possible.

Besides, with "software" anything is possible, in particular with #FOSS.--You just need to find one up-to-the-task programmer PO'ed enough that he solves that.

It might not be available on all instances, though.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:46 | Open on mastodon.social
David Boles

@HistoPol @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames

I just asked. I'll see what the answer is. I was told by my host that export is only there to satisfy GDPR requirements to "take your data with you" and that's where it begins and ends. Perfunctory in process only.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:47 | Open on boles.xyz
Paul Chambers

@david @HistoPol
I think that is accurate as to why the export was added but the discussion is to add some kind of import. I saw a Github package that parsed the download archive, retooted with everything unlisted so it wouldn't spam the timeline but it isn't part of actual official package. I'll have to find the link later and tag you. It was just being tested and rudimentary. I don't think it will ever be added officially, though because of issues it would cause instances.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:53 | Open on oldfriends.live
David Boles replied to Paul

@paul @HistoPol

Yes, I sent you several replies about it.

It isn't going to happen officially in Mastodon.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:57 | Open on boles.xyz
Paul Chambers replied to David

@david @HistoPol

I read them as I was typing. I'm slower with my Parkinsons than people are with discussions and many times I am behind on the progress of the discussions.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:59 | Open on oldfriends.live
HistoPol (#HP)

@david @paul @fediversereport @fediversenews @Bluedepth @darren @juneussell @volkris @hashtaggames

Let*s see.
Anything that can be downloaded can be uploaded again (in principle).

I also had (originally) thought about migrating my #Birdsite legacy here, but decided against it. Not for technical reasons, though. Converting the data should be feasible, with some effort.

12 Mar 2023 at 21:00 | Open on mastodon.social
wandy_dev

@paul I'm not an admin currently, but if I was I would fedi block any meta run instances.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:23 | Open on mstdn.social
Brennan Stehling

@paul The ActivityPub protocols will have to evolve to support caching mechanisms to handle the load. Even without Big Tech being involved since so many people have decided to use #Fediverse apps now. I expect transient caches of just 24 hours could reduce the load considerably. And when a new post triggers pushes the payload could include a random set of other hosts which have been pushed which could allow them to share the new post.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:34 | Open on sfba.social
Brennan Stehling

@paul I may also create separate accounts for isolated islands of servers which would be a closed community in a way just to keep the load and traffic down. Universities, neighborhoods and other small groups could run their own islands which could be semi-private much like Slack and Discord are being used.

12 Mar 2023 at 20:37 | Open on sfba.social
Brennan Stehling

What I’d like to do use my computer I have at home. It is online 24/7 on broadband. I could link my account(s) so that those servers can store data on it and when I use clients I can largely use my own computer as a server. I could even offer to host 10 or more guests with rate limiting. Many others could do the same to reduce the load.

@paul

12 Mar 2023 at 20:50 | Open on sfba.social
Brennan Stehling

Servers would queue up the work and handle it under their constraints. With my account I could even list my home server so it could get pushes directly and offer that data to the server(s) I use. It would ensure I get posts quickly and offload the load on servers. @paul

12 Mar 2023 at 20:51 | Open on sfba.social
DELETED

@fediversereport @fediversenews since there is nothing to "buy" outright, I think they will try poisoning it...

12 Mar 2023 at 19:38 | Open on fosstodon.org
Brennan Stehling

If Meta and other big tech companies add support for #ActivityPub I am all for it. I still would encourage most people to pick servers which are run with policies which serve them best. Work should continue to go into improving #Fediverse protocols and client apps so users have choices which they do not with Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Apps like @IceCubesApp have shown great apps can be built for this community.

@fediversereport @fediversenews

12 Mar 2023 at 20:22 | Open on sfba.social
CynBlogger™️

@fediversereport @fediversenews @antonioserrata
Just my opinion, but any META-related instance would be instantly excluded from my Mastodon feed.

12 Mar 2023 at 21:06 | Open on sfba.social
LillyLyle/Count Melancholia
Alien (A23P)
@fediversereport Worth Noting:
1. During the "earlier" days of the "Federation", it was possible to "semi"-Federate with Facebook. Their chat used the XMPP protocol and thus one could chat with their Facebook contacts, as well as any other contacts they may have that used the protocol. Facebook also allowed means of both pushing and pulling post via their API....
In the "Federation", there was a time when it was possible for Friendica, Hubzilla, and to a more limited degree, Diaspora pod/server accounts to not only Federate across their own open source and decentralized protocols, but to essentially bridge incorporating interactions with the major platforms, including Facebook.
(If memory serves correct, Facebook killed off XMPP for chat AND the bridging capabilities sometime around 2012-2013)

2. Facebook (Zuckerberg) contributed to financing development to (at least) the Diaspora Federation Protocol.

*IMHO, while Diaspora directly addressed many western populist pop culture ideas at the time of it's birth, it's inability to deliver a user experience that didn't "feel" isolated from the majority of ones more direct friends/family/community, led to lack of adoption and subsequent non-threat to the major social nets. What @heluecht worked out with Friendica/Hubzilla however, notably when coupled with things like XMPP, created a situation where if Facebook/Meta NOT killed of XMPP and cut down on their provided API abilities to facilitate a bridged experience, the major social nets as they are currently known very well may have had major threat issues on their hands if not outright collapsed within a few years.
@Gargron Mastadon/AP surge (much like the "PlusPora" Diaspora pod instance the past) stands as a rather unique (and odd) occurrence in the Federations history, but Enterprise working in cooperation with and facilitating bridging to the Federation is more a return of progression from the 'earlier' days than something totally new.*
@fediversereport Worth Noting:
1. During the "earlier" days of the "Federation", it was possible to "semi"-Federate with Facebook. Their chat used the XMPP protocol and thus one could chat with their Facebook contacts, as well as any other contacts they may have that used the protocol. Facebook also allowed means of both pushing and pulling post via their API....
12 Mar 2023 at 22:09 | Open on social.trom.tf
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