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OK #Linux community, listen up. MS have done it again and people are looking for a way out. DON'T TREAT NEWBIES LIKE SHIT. DON'T ATTACK PEOPLE FOR ASKING QUESTIONS. DON'T ATTACK PEOPLE FOR HAVING PROBLEMS. DON'T TELL PEOPLE TO "GOOGLE IT" WHEN THEY COULDN'T POSSIBLY KNOW WHAT TO SEARCH FOR, OR HOW TO INTERPRET THE RESULTS THEY'D FIND. DON'T BE A DICK. :PicardComeOn: 318 comments
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@PurpleJillybeans If you're *really* enterprising set up Linux classes at your local library. @PurpleJillybeans@kind.social Why shouldn't they? I mean that'll result in less new linux users which I'd deem a good thing over all :vlpn_blep:  @PurpleJillybeans And don't suggest they use another distro, unless they picked something utterly terrible for a beginner, like Gentoo. Most likely they won't try another distro, they will just lose interest. @thebluemarble @PurpleJillybeans I think Kali would be THE worst distro to start with that nevertheless attracts newbies. @thebluemarble @PurpleJillybeans I mean, if they aren't building #LFS from within #wsl are they even real Linux users? All jokes aside, https://www.linuxcommand.org/ is great for those wanting "more" than just the pretty GUI stuff we all love. We should also make sure to indoctrinate them into the #gnome & #kde wars for sure!!! If that gets too boring, there are always #Wayland or #x11 debates to be had!!!  @PurpleJillybeans ...and if you do sincerely tell them to "Google it", clearly it's been a long time since you last used Google.  @PurpleJillybeans I'll add: don't throw out jargon that laypeople aren't going to understand. Use lay terms. If anything has kept me away from Linux all these years, it's that the common language of it is incomprehensible to me. @shansterable @PurpleJillybeans Because a multi-billions company is doing shit with their product does not entitle you to not doing a bit of homework. It has never been so easy to use and Linux. Not only the maturity but the amount of content (written or video) is insane. Even from an hardware pov is easier than ever, you have litterally Linux companies or friend (system76, framework, etc...) Take Ubuntu, purchase it, support companies and get support.  @petit_suisse @shansterable @PurpleJillybeans the main issue is that some companies are basically a no go in certain countries and many don't have touch screens. @frameworkcomputer is really good though. I highly recommend them! @petit_suisse @shansterable @PurpleJillybeans @petit_suisse did you not read the first post in this thread that said don't be a jerk!?! You're the jerk right now Edit: sorry it said don't be a dick You're the dick right now @petit_suisse I only see one post from that user on this thread- where she's asking for help. The rest are all suggestions for her and yours First user wasn't asking for help but was ranting and somehow blackmailing a whole community. If you think it is a good move, you are part of the problem. now, like Shannon, feel free to mute me.  @petit_suisse @shansterable @PurpleJillybeans What a perfect illustration of exactly what not to do! Thanks, hilarious crank whom I will now mute. But that's a vote for Ubuntu, anyway. @shansterable @PurpleJillybeans There is a lot of free software that can make you Linux experience as familiar to you as windows. As you grow more experienced you will find things that make your Linux function far better than MacroSteal ever was. You will find that you can write simple scripts to automate dozens of daily tasks so they can be done in a few keystrokes. Linux is easy to love! @shansterable @PurpleJillybeans the beautiful thing about Linux is you can set it up onc and do updates regularly and you'll be good to go forever without any Windows updates issues!!! So long as you don't choose #ubuntu. Wait no, that's wrong too... D'oh! @shansterable @PurpleJillybeans Distro is "distribution." There are different configurations of Linux made for various purposes. Fedora, Debian, Slack... all distros. Learning curve depends on the distro. I now recommend Pop OS for noobs. They have sane default settings for basically everything and the installation is straightforward. Maintenance? There's a package manager called PopShop. You open it and update. Problem solved. This is true in basically all newer distros. Very simple. @shansterable @PurpleJillybeans As far as tutorials... almost all of the Linux tutorials you'll find are written by people that don't remember trying to learn, unfortunately. System76 does have some good videos that might seem particular to Pop OS, but largely apply to all distros. https://support.system76.com/articles/pop-basics/ If you have any questions, throw them my way and I'll help if I know how. @shansterable @PurpleJillybeans Linux Mint is extremely user-friendly & using command line is not generally necessary unless you want to get very hands-on. There's others too but Mint is basically plug-&-play. With any Linux system, sadly there will likely be some moments where you will need to do some command line stuff bc so much is just not made for Linux systems that it adds some extra steps to things. But you can even play most games on Linux now at least thru steam lol so its gettin there  @PurpleJillybeans We need to emphasize that (a) you can run Linux from a usb live (or DVD more slowly) and (b) some distros will dual boot with Windows (until you are happy to renounce Windows). There also needs to be a friendly place for questions (other than Distrowatch which is too advanced). @PurpleJillybeans In the spirit of this post, is anyone down to doing a sort of Mastodon #LinuxOfficeHour ? (Sorry if this is hijacking your post, I'll delete this post if that is the case) The don't google it is also going to start being really good advice now with the onslaught of AI slop and genAI answers/chatbots. Starting off on the right foot with an inclusive and helpful community is going to be the best idea. Best thing I did was to get a computer built with #Linux in mind. There's more of them besides Emporer Linux, System76, and Dell now. So depends on what you use the computer for too. There is proprietary vendor lock-in and SAAS that will only work on Windows or Macs. Tried Libre Office (Open Office back then) on Windows first and email was online. Easy to switch with just those. Video editing was the only thing stopping me until KDEnlive. Gaming is different, though. @cainmark @PurpleJillybeans Steam is getting pretty good (although I only really play older stuff) @sideshow_jim @cainmark Even as little as a year ago, gaming on Linux was a bigger problem than it is now. I have a Win10 partition on my main desktop that I used to use for gaming, but nowadays Proton and Wine work so well that I never use it even for that anymore. @PurpleJillybeans @sideshow_jim @cainmark yeah it's been a while since I simply could not play a game because I use Linux, then again I don't sample tons of games so I'm sure there's a few out there that would cause me problems. But as you said, i never even have to use Wine because Proton pretty much handles what I need it to. 🤷 @PurpleJillybeans @sideshow_jim @cainmark it’s shockingly good with Proton and Wine pushing the boundaries. It’s surprising how much better my Steamdeck plays most games better than my MacBook Pro with significantly more powerful hardware. Most frustrating for me was learning about graphics cards and how they can sometimes just not work (under Windows too) for no discernable reason.  @PurpleJillybeans@kind.social "Don't be a dick" is always a good rule. It should be pretty much your FIRST rule.  @PurpleJillybeans Also: don't even fucking mention the Terminal. Good Lord I don't know why nobody in the Linux community understands that normal people don't want to use that shit  @davidbures I think calling people who are used to use the terminal "unnormal" is one of the definitions of "being a dick". But in less defensive words: often the terminal is the only way when other tools don't work. @funbaker @PurpleJillybeans Linux users are far from normal, the same way people using Mastodon don't represent the normal population. In order to even find out what Linux is, you need to know what an operating system is, and that's far too much for a population that doesn't even know there's a difference between "internet" and "web browser". (1/2) As long as Linux users think they are "normal users", there will be little progress made in Linux's journey to become mainstream The terminal being the only way to do most stuff is a massive failure on the part of Linux, not a strength. And Linux users / distro maintainers have to realize that. The average person will never open the Terminal; the moment someone even suggest that, they'll go "This is too difficult and a waste of time. Why isn't there an app for this?" (2/2) @davidbures strong words, but nothing behind. I'm happy to help, but if you don't want: be happy to be spied on and your data sold to whomever @davidbures ofc you could also go the third way: start contributing to a better solution. @funbaker @davidbures this is just not productive. Devs need user input, & the only response cannot be "you should contribute then if you don't like it." Think about what you just said. "If you are a typical computer user & don't want to use a command line, THEN CONTRIBUTE TO DEVELOPING SOFTWARE YOU'D RATHER USE." People who don't want to use a command line WON'T be developing software!!!!!! So yes, you are PUSHING users into getting spied on by belittling their needs. @itsmeholland As a Mac GUI Dev he would be cleary capable of doing that. But all he did and does was to insult linux users. @itsmeholland I'm not a GUI Dev at all. I'm a Sysadmin and able to deal with Problems around Linux. Unfortunately I was not able to find a single question under the OP. @funbaker@chaos.social you're either not seeing the big picture or your choosing not to so I'll spell it out. This isn't about HIS SPECIFIC "question," or anyones specific question, to you or anyone in particular. This is about the TENDENCY of Linux people to respond obnoxiously to ANY beginner questions (or in your case, the IDEA of any beginner question) with hostility & pedantry. That's literally what OP was about, & all it was about. & thats what almost all the comments have been about. @itsmeholland yeah. no. this particular case was different. ask me any beginner question. but don't expect a timeframe or smth like that to answer. @funbaker the point about the terminal was not even directed at you, not sure why you're making your status as "not a GUI dev" a thing when it's not relevant at all. No one actually asked you in particlar anything, but you still needed to chime in to tell HYPOTHETICAL/unnamed/not present people who have an issue using CLI to go fuck themselves & become a dev if they want a GUI for everything so badly. This is literally what people are complaining about on this post lmao.  @funbaker @davidbures attitudes like this are why people don't want to learn to use Linux. You have to meet people where they are. @lori I'm not gonna lie: you won't have 1:1 experience like with windows. @PurpleJillybeans writing all caps wont help dealing with unrealistisc high expectations tho.  @PurpleJillybeans They will most certainly find, in their Google search, your “go ask Google” taunt. I remember trying to use one distro back in the day: ME: I think this difficulty is due to a bug? @PurpleJillybeans and I would also add that kindness to those who still use Windows is free. Choosing your OS is a luxury that not every company allows. Also, some people are stuck with software entirely designed for Microsoft. I'm currently dealing with a complicated piece of very popular software that has a half-assed Linux version with zero support and contradictory documentation. When I meet someone who says they're running it on a windows server, the only good answer is "Great choice".  @PurpleJillybeans what I would like is a nice simple guide to installing a linux flavour, and how to add the various bit needed on top. Yes I know part of linux is its diversity, but I stopped messing with software and os's 20 years ago. @Thebratdragon @PurpleJillybeans the modern popular distros (Mint, Debian, Ubuntu) have really sleek graphical interfaces throughout setup. They even help you dual boot if you want to keep your windows system (just make sure windows is installed first! It usually is but I've done it backwards before with Linux first & windows won't allow it lol) @PurpleJillybeans@kind.social The fact that we need to remind our community about what should be basic human decency is part of the reason why The Year of Desktop Linux™ keeps not happening. >.< @PurpleJillybeans this brings back, in mental IMAX with Digital Surround Sound, my attempt at using Mandrake Linux a couple decades ago: get lost on endless dependency trails, read the FAQs and search the forums without success, put a concise request for help in the right part of the right forum, and get nothing but "LOL go back to playing with your little Windoze box if that's the kind of question you have to ask LOL luser LOL". Sounds like not much change since then. @PurpleJillybeans There are some really good options for beginners. Try Linux Mint, Tuxedo OS, Pop!_OS (when they come out with COSMIC), or maybe even OpenSUSE Tumbleweed.  @PurpleJillybeans 1. being inside of a bubble makes you think of low hanging info as 'common knowledge'. It is not common knowledge that ubuntu ≠ linux or what a distro or a desktop environment is. @PurpleJillybeans I don't pay much attention to the Windows world. Could I get a tl;dr on what happened there? And most of all, don't pretend you are innocent when you portray ALL of linux as being systemd, there is linux without it and it is great! Enough with that non-sense of ubuntu mint fedora manjaro as the only suggestions. I am sick and tired of hearing the very worst being portrayed as IT @PurpleJillybeans LMAO, this post is already generating butthurt among exactly the type of trollbag it's talking about. Gotta love it. Although you could have shortened this post by just saying "DON'T ACT LIKE THE MANJARO COMMUNITY FORUM MEMBERS." 😂  @PurpleJillybeans @GinevraCat there was a time when community forums were a good place to go, but nowadays not so much.  It's a good sermon and ought to be heard by one and all - - I came up under excellent Unix people who said nothing was more important, nothing would save more time, lead to better results - than to stop and teach someone how a task is done. I believe, 40 years in the chair, that pair programming of new people gets them off to the right start. @PurpleJillybeans Isn't someone proclaiming to be a Linux enthusiast or expert and also asking others to "google it" kind of bad sign anyway? :BlobhajShock:  @PurpleJillybeans yes yes yes yes yes and yes. SHOW HUMILITY. @PurpleJillybeans I've often said the linux community is the number one reason why linux isn't more widely adopted. We should be welcoming people and their questions, not acting like the sweaty nerds they think we are, gatekeeping things @seattleswiftie @PurpleJillybeans I'd say gaming, drivers and the lack of serious alternatives to office suit.  @PurpleJillybeans@kind.social I'm very, very happy to answer any and all questions about Linux that might be in my wheelhouse with as much or as little sass as the question haver wants. @oook If you don't have an answer to a question or don't feel like answering, just scroll by. @PurpleJillybeans I'm gonna throw out there, too, the interesting factoid that googling things doesn't even work any more. Linux oldbies are mostly from a pre-LLM internet.  @PurpleJillybeans especially do not tell people to "Google it" when Google has enshittified their web search in favor of a chatbot prompt  @PurpleJillybeans Any good resources for gaming on Linux? It's really the only reason I use windows and whenever I've heard people talk about it in the past it seemed way too complicated. @necromantrix Steam Just Works™ for the most part. You'll install it from your distro's package collection, or from #Flathub if they don't have it. A lot of games support Linux natively; for the rest you can go to Manage > Properties > Compatibility > Force Steam Play compatibility to make it use Proton. Try Heroic Games Launcher (available from Flathub) for GOG and Epic games. It will handle Wine automatically as needed. @PurpleJillybeans This x 1,000. (rec: Pop!OS is about as easy as can be, and I've met pretty much nobody in that scene who acted like an ass, which I am super-sensitive to.)  @PurpleJillybeans And do not bring your homework assignments into tech forums for answers. [applause] Because some folks want an appliance, not another hobby, and that is OKAY. @PurpleJillybeans It’d be great to set up some sort of follow-the-sun Linux install and Q&A party where people stream Linux installations, tips and tricks, and answer questions, for several days. I’d be in.  @PurpleJillybeans I agree Response telling person asking for help to find the answer elsewhere is a deliberately annoying post Somehow wastes time of all involved But also underlying design problem Bad design amplifies this problem on both QA or forums Question sites lack curation+moderation resulting in repeated questions and then leads right into this problem Assuming a question has a single static answer instead of solutions which may solve the problem but create more ie `chmod 777 /` @PurpleJillybeans dont forget there's also the possibility that someone has googled it and arrived at your message telling them to google it @PurpleJillybeans is this about the entire "Recall AI" announcement thing? Because if so, not many people care about that. Realistically, we all know that that announcement was basically crap. They're even talking about needing specific types of hardware for it. In other words, if you need specialized top end hardware for it, then it basically doesn't exist on any present devices. And the fact they added "AI" to it just means it is more or less non-existent except in their lab somewhere.  @PurpleJillybeans Definitely telling people to Google it these days is a dreadful idea given how dreadful search is these days.  @PurpleJillybeans The only hard time I'll maybe give them is for waiting for it to get this bad before finally breaking down and actually doing something about it.  Also, Windows refugees, please also, don't be a dick. You didn't pay for it, nobody is on staff to jump to your request, and thanks to twenty years of thankless exploitation by the so-called 'entrepreneurs' (aka hackers and hustlers) many have been soured by what was a labour of community love. We are all in this together.  @PurpleJillybeans "don't be a dick" should be a general rule. Unfortunately, someone was nailed to a tree millennia ago for the same suggestion. Still I love the idea.  Agreed … also, don't tell them to "Bing it" … "Duck it" (or "DDG it") is better. 🙂 Honestly, though, I'd send disgruntled Windozers to Apple, a not-problem-free vendor, because normies aren't going to like Linux. I've had, over the years, Solaris, RHEL, OpenSUSE, Kubuntu, Ubuntu w/TDE, & CentOS (also w/TDE) so don't think I'm some sort of anti-linux nutjob. @PurpleJillybeans what have they done now? *Looking like mom with both hands on the hips, while asking* @PurpleJillybeans And at this point, telling people to "Google it" will give them terrible Automated Inaccuracy-drive results anyway. Which, you know, sure is great. @PurpleJillybeans why aren’t there PCs available with Linux preloaded and easy to use? Why is it so hard to navigate a Linux install rather than accepting the windows or Mac environments? Seems like a missed business opportunity.  I'll do everything in my power to help you live without relying on evil giant corporations! What's that, you have a question? Why don't you Google it!
  I couldn’t even make it through the thread. I bought a windows laptop and had such a hard time setting it up I retuned it. @PurpleJillybeans thank you for saying this. I started with Linux in 1993, and I've seen this as one of the biggest limiters to adoption. It's also why I stopped following the Linux tag here. It's sad because I've made a career out of Linux going back to 1999 when my work started offering managed Linux 25 years of hosting and enterprise experience. Shitty behavior doesn't just drive off the new people. It's hard to engage with a community when it's toxic.  @PurpleJillybeans Hear, hear.  @PurpleJillybeans "google it" is an especially lousy non-suggestion with how much google's done it again too @PurpleJillybeans these are the best kinds of times for me as a person who likes to give linux support recreationally :blobcat: i should organise another event at my local hackspace @PurpleJillybeans Okay - Someone please recommend me an MMO style mouse which actually works under Linux (and preferably not Razer or Logitech). It's like one of my last barriers which holds me from switching 😭 This times a million. Years ago when I started to try Linux, I got that exact treatment, it was NOT helpful in the slightest. Remember, not everyone knows what you do. Not everyone thinks the way you do. Be kind, understanding and helpful... and if you can't at least be quiet and let the others be kind, understanding and helpful  May I add; Please don't recommend new users to whatever weird Linux distribution you're using for your own weird reasons, just point them at Ubuntu or Mint. This falls under "Don't be a dick". @PurpleJillybeans Sure, we're here. How can we help? Let me suggest "The Linux Command Line", No Starch Press, latest edition. A simple desktop would be XFCE, Debian always works. Or one could start with Mint and Cinnamon. I am not into Ubuntu as I'd call it the Windows among the Linuxes (ready to receive a beating). What else? Well, just install, play around, find your way. And keep in mind that OS and Desktop are two distinct things in Linux and nobody forces you to use a specific software.  so @jorge you've talked a lot about the Bluefin tech stack here; is there any good writeup of what you're doing around the Bluefin community stack?  @PurpleJillybeans I am happy to report I have never interacted with these types in my linux journey; only when it was specifically c++ open source software @PurpleJillybeans  @PurpleJillybeans I can't think of a community that more needs this advice than the Linux community.  @PurpleJillybeans Now we just need to wait for Linux accessibility to graduate from "unusable" to "broken", thereby matching MacOS! @PurpleJillybeans I really want to believe this is possible but with exception of some of the prominent more friendly linux creators, the amount of gatekeeping, and passive aggressive bs that I've seen in the past makes that really hard to see that happening. ... I still stubborn enough to get on that horse again eventually, I'm just saying.  I used Ubuntu years ago and now considering going back to Linux. Looking for a distro that's unfriendly to AI. Any recommendations?  @matt @PurpleJillybeans Great counsel; the work being mostly volunteer doesn't justify rudeness.  @PurpleJillybeans I started a collection of guides/how-to's etc. here It's small, but it's a start. @PurpleJillybeans don't tell anyone to Google anything anymore, did we all forget how search has the exact same problems we're wanting people to leave Windows over? Google doesn't work anymore so neither does "Google it"  @PurpleJillybeans If you're #blind Linux isn't even accessible. No viable linux way out for me, sadly. Might I even suggest that local Linux super users help hold clinics at pubic libraries one weekend a month where they show othere how to set up computers. @PurpleJillybeans am I the only one who disagrees with the "Linux community is full of dicks" trope? In my experience, it's the users who want a perfect one to one mac/windows experience and don't get that who behaves the worst. Someone try some distro based on some outdated 2010 post, disregard all the community's information efforts, find some trouble, and start saying linux is garbage on twitter and the distro's forum. And even __then__ there are helpful people trying to troubleshoot 🤷🏼♂️ @PurpleJillybeans thank you!! I hate it when I ask for help in Linux communities, and they ask if I’ve tried [insert super advanced thing here], when the only reason I use Linux is because I don’t trust Microsoft, and I just like it better. Too many people think of you use Linux, you must automatically be ultra advanced with tech. That’s not true in the slightest @PurpleJillybeans I love my Steam Deck. Been my daily driver for 18 months. #Linux #SteamOS |
Gregory's Server
@PurpleJillybeans I'm very new at Linux, and I have been really impressed with the community so far. Lots of people want to help. The YouTube "how to" videos are really inviting.
All I can say is that I hope everyone is treated as well as me, someone who 100% presents as a cis/het white man.