Gregory's Server@mariellequinton @mbonsma That's one way of looking at it, and yet if you want to experience an environment where most of the pedestrians are incapacitated, try driving near the Oktoberfest in the evening. It's not ideal & it doesn't make it easier to take care of the ppl who need me as a driver to react differently. >
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62 comments
@twobiscuits @mbonsma The solution here is just not to drive near Oktoberfest š¤·š¼āāļø if you can't drive safely, you shouldn't be driving. @mariellequinton @mbonsma the form of distraction that has grown massively in recent years is ppl believing they can be deep in their online world while out on the street, and it is a plague that affects both drivers and pedestrians. *of course* drivers have more responsibility, but suggesting that anyone has carte blanche to be competely oblivious to their surroundings while out and about isn't going to end well. @twobiscuits @mbonsma Somehow no one ever suggests drivers should open their windows, turn off their stereos, slow down, and look around. Modern cars are so soundproof many drivers can't hear sirens from emergency vehicles. But it's pedestrians that aren't paying enough attention? It's drivers not paying attention and going too fast. @mariellequinton @mbonsma I absolutely do suggest that and typically drive with windows open whenever I can. It's a very different point from saying to pedestrians "you have a right to be distracted" in the middle of an epidemic of distraction. Everyone has the obligation to use the senses they have to the best of their ability. @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma Well, i'd say it is way more assymetrical. If you've the potential to kill a person, your obligation is way higher. That's what is in discussion here imo. @efialto @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma It's an interesting debate... When pedestrians are far more likely to be injured or worse, it may mean we'd expect greater care to be taken with their own safety? Any noise canceling headphones will alter your experience of your surroundings & I believe should be used when you are in a position to do so without risk - consider cycling, skiing, driving - these are not times to block or mask your hearing in my opinion. Stay safe people š ā¤ļø @meganisalanis @efialto @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma Exactly, we are not the problem but it is not wise to be distracted when crossing the street @meganisalanis @efialto @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma some of us need noise canceling headphones to negotiate the world. should autistic people not leave the house? @elizabethveldon @meganisalanis @efialto @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma did anybody say that? @0rcus @meganisalanis @efialto @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma you just did when you went on about noise canceling headphones? @elizabethveldon @meganisalanis @efialto @mariellequinton @mbonsma The only thing ppl should do is whatever they reasonably can, and that is obviously a whole patchwork of different abilities. How I understand "distracted" is "being less alert to your surroundings than you can reasonably be expected to." That doesn't sound like what you would be doing. @twobiscuits @meganisalanis @efialto @mariellequinton @mbonsma yet noise canceling headphones where specificly brought up as a form of distraction. would you want to check in with the relitives of the person you killed to check if they should have been wearing those headphones? @meganisalanis @efialto @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma noise cancelling car cabs would be even worse then right? So purchasing a car with that feature is irresponsible and reckless regardless of how it's driven  @meganisalanis @efialto @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma "When pedestrians are far more likely to be injured or worse, it may mean we'd expect greater care to be taken with their own safety?" I hear this often, but I don't follow the logic ā there seems to be a step (or more) missing there, and no one who makes this claim seems able to fill it in. What makes it different from requiring the target, not the shooter, to take greater responsibility for avoiding gunshot injury? @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma "epidemic of distraction" [citation needed] @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma a pedestrian is way less likely to kill you than you are likely to kill them. This isn't a semetrical relationship. @elizabethveldon @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma I walk around with my fingers in my ears because sirens need to be made loud enough to penetrate closed car windows. I can't put my fingers in my ears when I'm on a bike. @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma No accountability for those who wield all the danger and can cause all the harm to others.  @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma donāt forget to make sure you make eye contact* with drivers when crossing the street! *likely impossible with modern and illegal window tints all over the place @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma I agree. I have to be super diligent against cars to stay safe. I wear a reflector vest at night. I'm even considering getting an air horn to "honk" at people who aren't paying attention when I'm walking. I think we have to be more diligent, not less. @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma the idea that we need to be on guard at all times in public is unhealthy and a bad idea on a lot of levels. My right to go for a walk should not be limited by someone else's desire to go faster. We're not safe in buildings either - at least 3 cars have run into buildings in my city in the last week or so. Should we avoid being distracted while sitting in restaurants or on the couch? @thesquirrelfish @mariellequinton @mbonsma I think we have some very different environments in mind. Iām in the centre of a historic European city. The modal split of walking and cycling here are both > 20% for the whole city, and higher here in the middle. The first thing thatās gonna happen to you if you are walking along in a daze is walking slap into another pedestrian, and it won't take long. Being out and about is cool here, but if you want to have a daydream you better choose your spot. @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma I have tested this in many world cities, Europe included, and no one has been harmed when cars were not involved. @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma itās not āof courseā though. At least in #America we have a serious case of car brain, which means we consider motor vehicles part of oneās body until they ram into somebody, maiming or killing them, when all of a sudden there was no driver presentāto describe one symptom. Itās really wild when you start to see this for the sickness it is.  @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma If you can't look where you're walking, you deserve to fall into a manhole in the middle of the street. @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma "Look where you're walking" is the first rule of walking.  @MaierAmsden @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma "don't squish the delicate sacks of meat" should be the first rule of driving, but somehow isn't. The first rule of driving is "don't hit other cars". @kboyd @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma We all know "pedestrians have the right of way," but physics + reaction times = bad outcomes for inattentive jaywalkers. @kboyd @MaierAmsden @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma Is it? I thought the first rule was donāt slow down other drivers by doing silly things like yielding to pedestrians, obeying the speed limit, or slowing down for inclement weather conditions. @PedestrianError @MaierAmsden @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma hmm, could be written as "Don't Be Traffic"  @kboyd @MaierAmsden @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma It already is. We call that rule "vehicular manslaughter." @LouisIngenthron @MaierAmsden @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma yeah, but most of the time it seems to result in a slap on the wrist or a ticket - often, less than $500. @kboyd @MaierAmsden @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma Wait, you think accidentally killing people only results in a $500 ticket? You're gonna need to cite a source on that one, because we clearly don't live in the same world. In my state, vehicular manslaughter is a second-degree felony. @LouisIngenthron @MaierAmsden @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma I said squishing, I didn't say the degree of squishing involved. And many vehicle-on-pedestrian incidents fit my description of a slap on the wrist. That said, I have personally known at least one person who has unintentionally killed someone with their car, and I don't think they even got a ticket. @nuncio @mariellequinton @mbonsma I think Manhole Guy who left it unprotected is gonna be on the hook for that one. As for someone crossing on red, etc., as a driver I still have to do my best for them. Our (Austrian) rules of the road begins with (only a light paraphrase) "if you see anybody doing something obviously nutty on the street, slow the fuck down and stop, if you have to, to keep them safe". @nuncio @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma  @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma Well, the obvious solution is to avoid the metropolitan area of Munich during September/October. So simple. At least if you are not one of the poor souls who live there.  @mariellequinton @twobiscuits @mbonsma close, but IMO the actual solution is to not Engineer traffic near Oktoberfest. If you can't Engineer traffic safely, you shouldn't be Engineering traffic. @twobiscuits Would you prefer those people to be driving home from Oktoberfest? You canāt plan a society around expecting critical masses of people to always behave perfectly - especially if you expect less perfect behavior from those with more power (such as those operating heavy machinery). Never mind that a pedestrian wearing headphones, reading a text, or slightly tipsy is hardly in a āfucking oblivious dazeā. @PedestrianError Tbbh I'd prefer there to be no Oktoberfest, and I've lived in Munich. It's a horrible amalgam of excessive drinking, bad beer (bc only one decent brewery is eligible, ie within the city) and overtourism. But I wasn't commenting on that. I was just saying it wouldn't be very practical if all the pedestrians everywhere were always like that. @twobiscuits Well it wouldnāt (although Iād prefer Oktoberfest everywhere to the cars everywhere we currently have), but thatās far from the reality thatās killing rapidly growing numbers of pedestrians on US streets with many of them being seniors or children and only a few being drunk out of their minds. @PedestrianError The toot is fine if we take it as a howl of anger. Less so if we take it strictly. In my urban utopia, being outside is so much fun that one wants to take it all in, not slouch around with one's nose in the internet. @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma the only dangerous part about the situation you describe is your car. Public streets are supposed to be for people. @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma think of it this way: Becuase the car is present, even if all pedestrians were at max alert, the pedestrians would still be in danger If the car wasn't present, *no one would be in any danger at all* @twobiscuits @mariellequinton @mbonsma You could wander around just fine before they invented cars |
@mariellequinton @mbonsma Public streets have never been a great place for wandering around in a complete fucking oblivious daze, and I don't think they ever will be. <>