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Firecat

@EU_Commission you forgot popular gaming platform Steam which is owned by Valve. You guys are fighting them in court for Geo-locking and already fined the 5 game publishers for making deals with Valve.

Steam is the same as Apple. You can’t download anywhere else. You can’t buy products anywhere else without making an account with them. Publishers are unwilling to sell games anywhere else. Valve is gatekeeper of games.

6 Sep 2023 at 11:12 | Wall-to-wall | Open on mstdn.social
26 comments
Simon Müller :sparkles_trans:

@firecat @EU_Commission At minimum ever since Epic Games has (re)entered the scene in a large way, there would be two platforms to consider, that being Valve and Epic Games

I believe from their values though that Steam isn't explicitly *trying* to gatekeep, so they'd probably comply without any fuss.

6 Sep 2023 at 11:22 | Open on mstdn.social
Firecat

@Rush @EU_Commission they are part of the problem with today’s gaming. They can and have censored games that weren’t bad. Visual Novels games are getting banned and Japan thinks Valve is races for blocking popular well known Visual Novels titles. Valve controls the numbers you see on download, player stats and reviews. They removed their API data & made websites like steamSPY unavailable to be used.

Valve is not trying to be a good company. It’s trying to gatekeep all games in their own website

6 Sep 2023 at 11:30 | Open on mstdn.social
DELETED

@firecat @Rush @EU_Commission While Steam is the biggest PC gaming marketplace, they already allow you to use different stores and third-party software on the Steam Deck (they don’t control your PC anyway). Any other console would have forced you to use their store only. I wouldn’t call that gatekeeping. You’re free to install the “banned” visual novels from another store or from the publisher directly and play it on your PC or the Steam Deck.

6 Sep 2023 at 12:12 | Open on mastodon.online
Firecat

@GlowingLantern @Rush @EU_Commission that is one of the major problems. Publishers and developers will not upload or use other sites. They exist yes but looking through their eyes, playerbase is dead set on having the game on steam, not anywhere else. Also, legally handing those payments isn’t cheap or easy for anyone.

Developers and publishers have little choice, they lose money or they lose respect from the community.

6 Sep 2023 at 12:21 | Open on mstdn.social
Steve

@firecat @EU_Commission there are Origin, Epic Games, physical distribution, a load of freely distributed games, and all of those are in theory available on the Steam deck as well as far as Unix support goes. I'd say there's a difference there

6 Sep 2023 at 12:19 | Open on mastodon.social
Firecat

@flying_saucers @EU_Commission physical is gone, I can personally confirm it is just plastic with steam digital code, their website claims the same thing. EA has their own yes but no way to play in Linux because it’s DRM which Proton can’t do anything about it. Unless publishers like EA put their launcher on Steam and it allows them to bypass DRM because EA approved it. You also can’t play all EA games, 64bit is the requirement while Steam has older versions.

See the problem of Steam monopoly

6 Sep 2023 at 12:30 | Open on mstdn.social
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission Valve may qualify to eventually be bound by this legislation but some of your assertions are inaccurate.

- the comparison with Apple's marketplace is inaccurate. Apple actively enforces their App Store as the *only* distribution of software on iOS devices, with every other method having to still be approved by them in some way or literally being a jailbreak of the hardware. Valve is not the only video game PC software distribution method by a long shot, does not and cannot mandate distribution through themselves, and does not seek to charge developers outside of its store platform for merely making software at all.

- unless you are attacking the current status quo of needing an account to buy and play games from any software store's distribution, I'm unaware of any platform that lets you buy a game without making an account with them. (Unless it's direct from the developer and they choose the extremely rare choice of merely delivering a drm free software package ala the 20th century

@firecat @EU_Commission Valve may qualify to eventually be bound by this legislation but some of your assertions are inaccurate.

- the comparison with Apple's marketplace is inaccurate. Apple actively enforces their App Store as the *only* distribution of software on iOS devices, with every other method having to still be approved by them in some way or literally being a jailbreak of the hardware. Valve is not the only video game PC software distribution method by a long shot, does not and cannot...

6 Sep 2023 at 15:14 | Open on pawb.fun
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission - you can buy games elsewhere more often nowadays, as publishers are more willing to sell on non-steam stores. The only issue is that not every publisher takes that route, because of what I think the real issue is:

Steam is the market leader, to an extent that other video game distribution platforms struggle to exist outside of more niche applications often propped up by loss-leading money. They didn't necessarily arrive here by underhanded means though, certainly not to the extent of Apple historically and currently. It is very hard to disrupt the market leader if the majority of consumers on it are satisfied with it, and even then it can still maintain its position through inertia.

Analyzing the other stores, this is what we have to contend with:

- GOG (which in my personal opinion is the best way other than Steam to run a game store) has a solid niche, but due to its convictions with being DRM-free (which I adore) it struggles to attract publishers, and hence gamers as well.

@firecat @EU_Commission - you can buy games elsewhere more often nowadays, as publishers are more willing to sell on non-steam stores. The only issue is that not every publisher takes that route, because of what I think the real issue is:

Steam is the market leader, to an extent that other video game distribution platforms struggle to exist outside of more niche applications often propped up by loss-leading money. They didn't necessarily arrive here by underhanded means though, certainly not to the...

6 Sep 2023 at 15:18 | Open on pawb.fun
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission

- Battle.net, Ubisoft Connect, Rockstar Social Club, and other major AAA launchers are most often just dedicated to the games they make/publish, with few exceptions. They can't replace the market for wider game selection like Steam.
In addition, they lack some of the features/UX/creature comforts of Steam's platform, as well as layering on extra DRM measures.

- EA Origin gets closer to being a steam replacement than the former set, as it has more third party selection in addition to its own games, but it's still closer to just being another AAA publisher launcher than a general game store than anything else.

@firecat @EU_Commission

- Battle.net, Ubisoft Connect, Rockstar Social Club, and other major AAA launchers are most often just dedicated to the games they make/publish, with few exceptions. They can't replace the market for wider game selection like Steam.
In addition, they lack some of the features/UX/creature comforts of Steam's platform, as well as layering on extra DRM measures.

6 Sep 2023 at 15:33 | Open on pawb.fun
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission
- Epic Games Store would be the closest game distribution platform that could build parity with Steam, but it is (in my opinion) the most lacking store of all.
It advocates game distribution percentages to fall to levels that are possibly unsustainable for most platforms to take, including EGS itself. The platform has brought the anti-competitive measures of third-party exclusives to a platform that has rarely had any. It directly exacerbates the issue of having to sign up to multiple game distribution accounts to access games. The UX and feature selection is routinely lacking, as the rate of development on the store is glacial in comparison to the market standard (perhaps exacerbated by the very slim margins it takes). Many features that one would expect with modern games are missing entirely, and require gamers to use steam to fill in the gaps anyway. Their customer support is some of the most atrocious I've ever seen. Etc etc etc...

@firecat @EU_Commission
- Epic Games Store would be the closest game distribution platform that could build parity with Steam, but it is (in my opinion) the most lacking store of all.
It advocates game distribution percentages to fall to levels that are possibly unsustainable for most platforms to take, including EGS itself. The platform has brought the anti-competitive measures of third-party exclusives to a platform that has rarely had any. It directly exacerbates the issue of having to sign up...

6 Sep 2023 at 15:38 | Open on pawb.fun
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission

The deficiencies of the competition, paired with the advantages of Valve, serves to compound their market share, requiring less overt anti-competitive actions by them in comparison to someone like Apple.

To address these issues, I would like to see the EU put forward a sort of intercompatibility measure like they did with the DMA wrt messengers:

- allow game distribution platform users to cross buy games across platforms and use on any platform of their choosing.

* I fear that this will only incentivise even stronger DRM measures than we have now.

- allow game distribution platform users to cross play with other users on other platforms

* I also fear that this would just prompt the game industry to solidify usage of Epic Online Services, which in their current form are another layer of DRM, less performant than other multiplayer stacks, and funnel data and usage towards Epic, sometimes even requiring an Epic Games account on non EGS stores. I despise that.

@firecat @EU_Commission

The deficiencies of the competition, paired with the advantages of Valve, serves to compound their market share, requiring less overt anti-competitive actions by them in comparison to someone like Apple.

To address these issues, I would like to see the EU put forward a sort of intercompatibility measure like they did with the DMA wrt messengers:

6 Sep 2023 at 15:45 | Open on pawb.fun
Firecat

@LiquidParasyte @EU_Commission yes something other than exclusive steam. The only way people can buy games is steam, some publishers like betesta only sell games on steam.

Valve has control over the requirements to play the game. You shouldn’t need the Steam client, you shouldn’t need Steam account for free games, you shouldn’t need to be tied to their User Agreement. Publishers are to be blamed but so it’s Valve for not doing more better choices for people.

6 Sep 2023 at 15:56 | Open on mstdn.social
Firecat

@LiquidParasyte @EU_Commission epic exists but again no one likes it and will demand steam over anything else. The stores even smaller ones like itch.io are losing customers, they are being rejected by Valve, they are being used as testing the waters and never published a full game in those stores. Epic games doesn’t have new DLC or fixes, it just exists to get free market until the developers switch to steam.

6 Sep 2023 at 15:47 | Open on mstdn.social
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission yes, many gamers do not like it, for reasons have listed. I have personally seen many gamers who were amenable to new competition in the game market space sour on Epic because of their actions and their lacking product category, mnyself being one of thenm. Even if I do not want the PC game market to be solely dominated by Valve, I would not accept its replacement being a company that's so blatantly pro-publisher, anti-consumer and monopoly aspiring. Part of its problems are exacerbated by Steam's market share, but many are self inflicted effects as being the "exclusive cash advance store" for publishers and "free game launcher" for users. Neither take it seriously.

I'm concerned as to itch's future, but it seems to have a niche of experimentation and indie games, with some full releases as well (not nearly as large as even GOG though :/). I've heard that some developers have complained about it lacking features like auto updating though. But what do you mean "rejected by Valve" ?

@firecat @EU_Commission yes, many gamers do not like it, for reasons have listed. I have personally seen many gamers who were amenable to new competition in the game market space sour on Epic because of their actions and their lacking product category, mnyself being one of thenm. Even if I do not want the PC game market to be solely dominated by Valve, I would not accept its replacement being a company that's so blatantly pro-publisher, anti-consumer and monopoly aspiring. Part of its problems are...

6 Sep 2023 at 16:11 | Open on pawb.fun
Firecat

@LiquidParasyte @EU_Commission Those launchers were independent and are installed outside of steam if the person wants to but 90% you won’t find such people. The launchers are becoming part of steam, currently independent but the future? Valve has shown to make backdoor exclusive contracts. They are the reason EU sue them for breaking the law with 5 publishers and they’ll try something else to gain more money.

6 Sep 2023 at 15:42 | Open on mstdn.social
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission most people have grown accustomed to having everything they own in one launcher, while those AAA launchers only have their published games. It makes sense from a logical standpoint to pick the option that covers the widest of bases, which does not incentivise sales of those non AAA published games to sell on AAA launchers, unfortunately.

I can see that Valve has made agreements to integrate these launchers into Steam, but I don't know where they've made deals to make *exclusives* for Steam - maybe they've agreed to modifying the profit share in order to get their competition to return, but *exclusive games* is not something I've seen from them. Their approach is that they don't need to, as they believe in their libertarian ethos of free trade (and are also the market leader). They notably declined to make an exclusive deal with Microsoft, unlike every other distribution platform, for 10 years, as they believe they don't need to use (explicitly negotiated) exclusivity.

@firecat @EU_Commission most people have grown accustomed to having everything they own in one launcher, while those AAA launchers only have their published games. It makes sense from a logical standpoint to pick the option that covers the widest of bases, which does not incentivise sales of those non AAA published games to sell on AAA launchers, unfortunately.

6 Sep 2023 at 16:21 | Open on pawb.fun
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission and as for the launcher integration, Valve's approach is one of two paths publishers can take. The other is basically selling a game key that prompts you to download the respective launcher of that publisher and manage your game launching and features through that. Many publishers take this approach, to the chagrin of gamers (why exactly do I need to sign up to *another store account* with *another full fat launcher* to manage a handful of games they publish? It wastes resources, it's obnoxious, it's another vector of my data being taken, it's another layer of DRM, it's another thing that often breaks because publishers do not invest in the UX required for gamers to see them as comparable to Steam, etc.). It has an interesting implementation on EGS though:
If you buy an EA or Ubisoft game there, they basically give you keys on their respective launchers. The difference is that Ubisoft doesn't require the EGS launcher to play those games afterwards (the ⭐ standard), but Origin *does.*

@firecat @EU_Commission and as for the launcher integration, Valve's approach is one of two paths publishers can take. The other is basically selling a game key that prompts you to download the respective launcher of that publisher and manage your game launching and features through that. Many publishers take this approach, to the chagrin of gamers (why exactly do I need to sign up to *another store account* with *another full fat launcher* to manage a handful of games they publish? It wastes resources,...

6 Sep 2023 at 16:28 | Open on pawb.fun
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission if publishers insist on having their store integration within other stores' launchers, I would prefer that they implement it the way Battle.net and Nexon do by default, with Ubisoft at worst:

Treat the store like another sign-in option and don't burden me with yet another launcher

OR

Let me buy a code from the store and then never need their launcher again.

I don't need multiple layers of store DRM and launcher software invading my disk and using up resources. I need them to treat themselves as another authentication option or to use the minimum resources necessary between their services and my game.

And this is why gamers often favor Steam.

@firecat @EU_Commission if publishers insist on having their store integration within other stores' launchers, I would prefer that they implement it the way Battle.net and Nexon do by default, with Ubisoft at worst:

Treat the store like another sign-in option and don't burden me with yet another launcher

6 Sep 2023 at 16:32 | Open on pawb.fun
Firecat

@LiquidParasyte @EU_Commission the else where is Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft Xbox for big publishers. Indie developers have little choice because people demand it on steam. There’s is no elsewhere when people refuse to buy it because of not having a Valve brand name.

6 Sep 2023 at 15:30 | Open on mstdn.social
LiquidParasyte

@firecat @EU_Commission that elsewhere is the console market, which by definition is singular platforms where only their manufacturers can sell games. Those console publishers in comparison are closer to Apple than Valve.

The PC market is more analogous to the Android market, except even more freer there as the executable format, hardware format, and software format is not locked into by a single OEM or group of OEMs subject to another market owner like Google with the Open Handset Alliance. Valve leads PC by default, but they do not own the market like Apple does on their devices, the console companies on their devices, or even lead to the level of Google on their devices.

@firecat @EU_Commission that elsewhere is the console market, which by definition is singular platforms where only their manufacturers can sell games. Those console publishers in comparison are closer to Apple than Valve.

The PC market is more analogous to the Android market, except even more freer there as the executable format, hardware format, and software format is not locked into by a single OEM or group of OEMs subject to another market owner like Google with the Open Handset Alliance. Valve...

6 Sep 2023 at 16:37 | Open on pawb.fun
Stardust

@firecat @EU_Commission you can buy games plenty of other places. People choose to put their games on steam on top of it.

6 Sep 2023 at 15:14 | Open on retro.pizza
Firecat

@bubblefizzpop @EU_Commission yes but people demand the games to be on steam or they won’t buy it. Mobile games aren’t accepted in steam without PC port. AAA publishers have Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo but indie developers have no choice when people demand it.

$100 non refundable that Valve takes is 100% on their control. Indie developers can’t handle payments laws or issue other important things. They have no choice in people’s will to unchanged their gaming habits.

6 Sep 2023 at 15:37 | Open on mstdn.social
Luce

@firecat @EU_Commission Steam is still the most gamer friendly and game creators friendly app tho, it is definitely not a monopoly by force, it's just that incredibly good

6 Sep 2023 at 20:52 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Firecat

@Kulei @EU_Commission well no, Steam has gotten into 5 ongoing lawsuits. EU geo-lock is the big one. American lawsuit filed by indie developer for monopoly that is approved by judge. French lawsuit seeks to make resold digital gaming legal. Valve got trouble on AU laws for not offering refunds for years.

This should tell you that Valve will not make gaming better, they do not care about customers and will break laws for profit.

6 Sep 2023 at 22:27 | Open on mstdn.social
Luce

@firecat @EU_Commission Good that lawsuits are forcing Steam to become better. I have no doubts that even with all those shortcomings it's still the best digital gaming platform to ever exist. Even the best digital platform overall (assuming it can be compared with other things like bullshit subscriptions everywhere, streaming services and such)

7 Sep 2023 at 8:47 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Hans van Zijst
@Firecat

> Steam is the same as Apple.



That's a different scale, Steam isn't as omnipresent as Apple.
6 Sep 2023 at 23:16 | Open on social.woefdram.nl
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