Karl Voit :emacs: :orgmode:
I've seen the #Microsoft #OneNote hype and warned the users of long-term lock-in effects. Then OneNote failed and people lost (parts of) their data. I've seen the #Evernote hype and it happened again. Now, I see the #Obsidian hype. (At least the file format is an open one.) 🤷 https://karl-voit.at/2021/01/18/tool-choices/ If you want to spare yourself some effort, think of starting with a solution with no lock-in: https://karl-voit.at/orgmode/ 30 comments
Karl Voit :emacs: :orgmode:
@frank Maybe this would have helped? https://karl-voit.at/2020/01/20/start-using-orgmode/ I don't think the learning courve is as bad as many people perceive. Most people seem to be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of options. Once you understand that you can ignore most of them from start, it might be easier. In the long run, any effort spent with Emacs is well invested because you don't have to lose data, migrate workflows from discontinued tools and so forth. It's a matter of perspective. HTH
neuro_flamee
@publicvoit @frank I've been using org mode for awhile and dont use emacs for anything but that really. The one thing that makes me consider switching to Obsidian is that it has a nice mobile app, and while I've been using Orgzly on my phone getting them to play nice has not been smooth.
Frank Meeuwsen
@publicvoit Thanks, I know your series and appreciate them! Your blog is in my feedreader :-) I still have positive feelings for Emacs, its philosophy and the power of orgmode. Yet I remain drawn to Obsidian because for me it is easier to step in and just use.
Karl Voit :emacs: :orgmode:
@frank Oh, yes. Obsidian ist clearly more optimized for "getting to run fast". If you're thinking in decades, that's not that relevant any more. 😉 And yes: Emacs doesn't support novice users that much in terms of "please do ignore almost all except ...". Muscle memory: true. My situation got much better when I adapted hydras as personal cheatsheets. So I don't have to memorize bindings and I have an option to re-discover functionality with that. 
Pavel Korytov :emacs:
@frank @publicvoit Probably nothing "just as good", but I'd go with some self-hosted Notion clone if I weren't able to use org mode. E.g. https://github.com/toeverything/AFFiNE
rjbandicoot
@publicvoit The hype around #obsidian is justified, and yes, it just uses a folder full of text files, so there's no lock in there. It also works on mobile and desktop platforms, with multiple options to sync your data and config across them. I love linux native tools as much as the next person, but for the range of use cases and devices, #emacs will never serve them across the board as well as Obsidian will.
a_siebel
@publicvoit @rjbandicoot Sorry - I love markdown and won't switch to another format. Apart from that: All the features I use in Obsidian exist in a similar way either in other Markdown readers OR I can implement them myself. That is why I am absolutely relaxed about potential changes to the Obsidian licence model.
Martin Johnsson
@a_siebel @publicvoit @rjbandicoot Yeah, this argument is definitely disingenuous. What exactly would I lose if I deleted Obsidian today? What is locked in. Nothing.
rjbandicoot
@publicvoit @a_siebel emacs on my iphone? I think you're missing the point ;-) Plus I push all my Obsidian files to git. Cause its all just text. In fact sometimes I even quickly dip back into vim with 'em. Never afraid to learn, & #obsidian is a wonderful combination of features with no draw backs. Love it. Love text, love md (because its text), & I love being able to integrate iOS shortcuts into this gorgeous mix. I also love vim (& can understand why you like emacs)
Lyle, a walking haunted house
@publicvoit @rjbandicoot @a_siebel Sure, but #obsidian is much more approachable for average users than #emacs #orgmode. Which isn't to say one is "better" than the other globally. But, better for some use-cases. And, you're not wrong. If Obsidian were to go away, I *would* loose a lot of cool tooling. But my *data* is safe on my devices.
Thomas Renkert🦞
@x1101 @publicvoit @rjbandicoot @a_siebel #orgmode and #obsidianmd can easily coexist. I use both in parallel for different tasks.
a_siebel
@publicvoit My Obsidian files are stored as Markdown files on my computer - I often open them with other programmes than Obsidian - I therefore see no danger of being in a dead end there - Obsidian can always be exchanged for another Markdown writer. However, I would not develop a plugin for Obsidian because of its architecture.
oatmeal 🐧
@publicvoit so true... I saw this post the other day, and I thought it was hilarious https://social.lol/@hl/110684727572990514 ... When you do use org-mode some crazy people think that for some strange reason you'd want to shoot yourself in the foot and replace it for Obsidian.
Paul Gill Rider
@publicvoit I'm not worried about #Obsidian failing, as all my files are on my computer. I also have been using #DEVONthink for almost as long as it has been around (15 years or so, maybe longer?) and it is a solid app that has never failed. AND all the files are kept on my computer, too. Both are indispensable to me.
VViktor
@publicvoit Did you have a chance to look at Logseq? I supports a lot of org-mode syntax, and it's open source. The only thing I miss right now is the level of Jira integration I had in Emacs.
Kevin Wittek
@wiktor @publicvoit I liked it a bit more than Obsidian, felt a bit less yak-shavy to me. 
Christian Tietze
@publicvoit +1 in general. I believe your recommendation is phrased wrong, though. Emacs and org-mode lock you in just like Markdown + Obsidian do. It's waaaaaay less likely you'll be screwed, though, because Emacs is free software. But that's not the same argument. While Emacs is maintained, you can get the editor to run on your operating system. If by chance it dies off, you can tweak the source yourself, but for regular Jane and Joe that's the same as company goes bancrupt.
Karl Voit :emacs: :orgmode:
@ctietze 100% agree! I did not prase it as good as you but meant the same thing. Obsidian: for people who are not able to learn Emacs Org-mode for reasons. 👍 (we may differ on the set of valid reasons or their priority) If you are in a position of being able to learn such a system (which is easer than most people suggest), Emacs has its advantages over Obsidian. And: There can't be any bancruptcy of Emacs. Therefore, there is zero lock-in effect except in your brain, of course. 😉
Christian Tietze
@publicvoit Sorry this all sounds way too negative! It's this: your warning against hype is accurate, and Emacs + org is also a great recommendation if longevity is important. By claiming there's no lock-in, your position gets weaker (easier to topple) because your argument is stronger (more specific). So you make your point more vulnerable without need, because what's left is still ace 👍
Jack Baty
@ctietze @publicvoit Yeah, putting time, energy, and content in Org-mode via Emacs is totally a form of lock in. It's maybe more benevolent than other kinds of lock-in, but you're still "stuck" with Emacs and some specifically-formatted "plain?" text .org files. I happen to love and prefer Emacs and those weird .org files, though! 😆 But really, if any of them went away, I'd just take a few days and move to something else. It would hurt, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
laotang
@jbaty @ctietze @publicvoit Org-roam might even be a "somewhat real" lock-in, as nodes and id-links might not be that easily converted to something else. It is not just: find ./ -iname "*.org" -type f -exec sh -c 'pandoc "${0}" -o "${0%}.MD"' {} \; 😉 (everything else I completely agree with)
Unai Herran
@publicvoit @jblake the best thing of obsidian is that they are just txt files and hopefully we will be able to at least read them no matter what we system we use (I think we can even use a Commodore 64 to read those files)
Björn Lindström
@publicvoit oh, #orgmode has lock-in. It's just you're locked in forever instead of until the service ends. 
Ben Sahlmueller
@publicvoit but obsidian isn’t lock in, it’s all just md, I’m using it and two other apps simultaneously on the same file set and it’s not a problem. (Sure, there are js features that might not work everywhere, and I’m very conservative with them for that reason.) |
Gregory's Server
@publicvoit I tried orgmode in Emacs. For about 6 months. I just can’t get used to the way Emacs works. On many levels from user interface to configuration and the steep learning curve. What’s an app I can use orgmode just as good which is not Emacs?
Life’s too short to dwell in config files, even though it can be fun ;-)