Gregory's ServerGot off my call with Reddit just now about the API. Bad news unless I come up with 20 million dollars (not joking). Appreciate boosts. https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_call_with_reddit_to_discuss_pricing_bad/
 @elijah @christianselig it’s almost certainly meant to kill third party applications and push users to their in-house app. They have no interest in making the api usable. @fishcharlie @christianselig There’s a #Reddit alternative that’s a part of the #Fediverse (just how Mastodon is). It’s called #Lemmy. Maybe people could move to that. 🤔 @LemmyDev @gracjan @fishcharlie @christianselig I'm a Mastodon user new to the Fediverse. Do these related services like Lemmy require making a new account? @swalchemist @fishcharlie @christianselig If someone is using another software that’s part of the Fediverse (Lemmy, Pixelfed, PeerTube, etc), you can follow them from your Mastodon account. You don’t need to create an account on that service. You also should be able to comment on and boost their posts.   @nf3xn @fishcharlie I 100% acknowledge this problem. Currently the landscape on Lemmy is small and weird to say the least (and I haven’t used it yet for these reasons), but it might change if more normal people start creating their own servers. @gracjan @fishcharlie @nf3xn so it's not going to be replacing reddit. The point of reddit is that it's one place, where you go to /r/anime for all anime discussions, /r/kpop for kpop, etc... Once you have dozens of instances, each with their own sub-communities... things get way more out-of-control in terms of discoverability and centralization (which is what you kinda want with Reddit, in my use-case at least) @falcon @fishcharlie @nf3xn You can have everything in one place. You can be on one instance and follow communities from another instance. It works similarly to Mastodon in this way. 1 - No. If you have 10 anime communities, you end up with 10 threads for discussing each weekly episode, not one. 2 - If it works similarly to Mastodon, does that mean there's also the problem where I might not see replies on a thread, like happens on Mastodon? Because if yes, it also misses the point of having a discussion thread if I can't read all replies (apart from private/blocked ones, of course)... @falcon @gracjan @nf3xn Sounds like you want the benefits of centralization in a decentralized system. However, I’d push back on the first point a bit. There is nothing stopping someone from creating r/anime and r/animeofficial. However, I question if these are truly big enough issues to stifle usage once it matures. Once you get enough federation, it feels like the real world impacts of these issues are minimal or nonexistent. > Sounds like you want the benefits of centralization in a decentralized system I don't. I never suggested a de-centralized alternative to Reddit. In fact, I was advocating that something decentralized would NOT be a replacement for Reddit exactly because it is decentralized. > There is nothing stopping someone from creating r/anime and r/animeofficial There's nothing, and it happens with new TV shows - Example, From (Paramount+). But when this happens, one of the communities ends up being the bigger one, and, since it's centralized, you know easily which one is bigger or more active. Which you wouldn't know in a decentralized environment, since your instance might not know about some other instance @fishcharlie @falcon @gracjan the devs not the admins, the people who make the software. @fishcharlie @gracjan Given it is on the fediverse you should count yourself lucky to have upvote and downvote buttons. 😂 @gracjan @fishcharlie @christianselig @LemmyDev nah, Lemmy is run by Nazis so never using it @chocolatefossty @gracjan @christianselig @LemmyDev Great. That’s your choice. But as it stands right now, your post is completely meaningless considering you didn’t provide any sources, evidence, or proof. @chocolatefossty @fishcharlie @christianselig @LemmyDev Currently there are many communists, not Nazis, but I get the sentiment. I’m currently not using it either for that reason, but this situation can 100% change if more normal people start creating servers. No single person or group of people can control Lemmy, just like it’s the case with Mastodon. Lemmy is really small right now (just over 500 monthly active users).  @tivasyk @chocolatefossty the *flagship instance* of lemmy (.ml) is very pro-Russian, and I moved away from it when I started noticing people talking about "Ukrainian invasion" and seeing comments criticizing Russia being heavily downvoted. luckily, as with every part of the Fediverse, there's a bunch of instances to choose from. personally, I'm quite fond of Beehaw. @gracjan @fishcharlie @christianselig My favorite instance is https://beehaw.org, let’s move there. @gracjan @fishcharlie @christianselig I recently started using #Kbin on first interaction it seems better than #lemmy, certainly has better integration with other Fedi group platforms, like Friendica Forums, Lemmy communities, Gup.pe groups, etc.in addition to their native "Magazines" @realcaseyrollins @gracjan @fishcharlie @christianselig @realcaseyrollins and it doesn't have the "baggage" of being so closely tied to Marxist-Leninism.  @christianselig Unfortunately, now it looks like apollo awaits the destiny of tweetbot(  @rileytestut @christianselig @christianselig This isn’t even greedy—it’s just asinine. I’m sorry dude, let me know if there’s anything we can do to raise awareness. @snazzyq @christianselig It especially feels like a punch in the face, since it SEEMED like Reddit was doing the right thing here, by communicating beforehand and saying why, etc. (And API payment is totally fine in principle!) Then this pricing... Hopefully the tech content makers (like yourself) will make fuzz around this! This seems closer to "evil" than "crazy". 😕 @snazzyq @christianselig Didn't you just recently start using Apollo too? Kinda feel like this is your fault :p No but seriously, this feels almost worth a video to talk about the insane pricing while highlighting a whole bunch of different Reddit Apps and what they bring to the table compared to the official App.  @christianselig I don’t understand how these companies see that pricing as sustainable for third party clients. No matter how you priced it - even to break even - seems it puts it out of reach for most users. If the goal is to push people to their official clients..ok..sure, but considering the official client is horrendous this seems more likely to push people off of Reddit. Another social media service for the dustbin :( @christianselig That is terrible. I hope you can work something out with them. Without Apollo, Reddit is useless as a service.  @christianselig This is nuts. I really hope they come to their senses. Let us know if there’s a way to help that you think will be productive. @christianselig Guess this is the end times? Sorry to hear that! You made an amazing app.  But yes that is absolutely absurd. Were they really expecting any of the third party clients to be able to afford this? Or was this just a convenient backdoor to killing off said apps under the guise of “well we offered them a way forward but for $ome reason they declined”. @Sonikku If they believed the rate was justified they’d sell reddit accounts with API access and collect the money directly. See, for example, the way banks were eager to charge ATM fees directly to consumers. The fact that it’s asked of the app providers is a tip that they are less interested in collecting it than driving users to where they collect all the telemetry. @christianselig If this absurd pricing effectively leads to the end of 3rd-party Reddit apps, I'll just stop using Reddit like I did Twitter. Hope they reconsider @christianselig damn, terrible news. Apollo is the only way I can stand to use Reddit, so, goodbye Reddit. Also goodbye on principle, because fuck that, and fuck late-stage capitalism and these companies ruining the internet. @spielundzeug @christianselig I mean... It does seem like their way of doing exactly that without admitting they’re doing that. Infuriating and saddening 😤😢 @christianselig I honestly thought you were trolling when you dropped the announcement. That's insane dude, sorry to hear. @christianselig Sorry you're having to deal with that. 😕 Wouldn’t use Reddit if it wasn't for Apollo. @christianselig this sucks so hard. The cynic in me doesn’t expect they’ll budge. I’ve been using Apollo since closed beta, it’s an incredible app and you’re an awesome dev. If things don’t work out, It deserves the tweetbot treatment at least. @christianselig that’s insane. I guess prohibitively expensive to AI research companies means solo devs will never be able to afford it. @christianselig holy shit, that’s insane! I’m so sorry Christian, especially if this is the end for Apollo @christianselig of course they’d be this greedy, it’s all a plan to kill third-party apps and close the platform off  @christianselig wow... RIP not just Apollo but any 3rd party reddit clients. I don't know how they expect ANYONE to be able to afford this. It sounds like they are explicitly pricing against companies like OpenAI that want to use the data for training LLMs and not even considering client apps. @christianselig They're charging for what? Connecting to the damn website? Ridiculous. Change the useragent and pretend you're the official app. They can charge themselves $20 Million/year. @christianselig they just want to shut you down, it’s just business, Apollo is way better than the official app.  @christianselig Absolute bummer. Your app IS Reddit for me. With that said, I totally understand if you now pursue other apps, and I look forward to seeing what you develop.  @christianselig Find someone to sell Apollo to (I hear Reddit is in dire need of iOS client), go all-in on VR pixel pals. Only half joking. @christianselig Grotesque. I hope there’s a mutually beneficial solution to the problem they’re creating. FWIW Apollo is the only app that makes Reddit usable to me.  @christianselig I use Sync but I imagine they'll have the same problem. This will basically turn reddit into a place I only go if I'm desperate for information (since raw google is even worse to deal with), because reddit's own interface is intolerable. LB: i for one celebrate the glorious return to phpBB and community forums as the big centralized hosts trip over themselves to raise the ladders of what made them big in the first place  @christianselig This is absolutely preposterous. I’m so sorry. Please let us know if there’s anything we can do to help. @christianselig Stupid Qs: Is this to compensate for the absence of displayed advertising? If so, what if you relayed them? Wow! Would you not be better off just writing your own back end for that kind of money? 🙄 I don't use Apollo, or Reddit that much tbh, but I feel this as someone who has been on the receiving end of bullying in business multiple times and I wish you well.  @kel @christianselig Reddit was once open source: https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit @christianselig Is there a way to allow users to purchase their own api key or charge us $4 a month if you have to? @christianselig wtf…. No Apollo means bye bye Reddit for me. Hope you find a solution to it (mostly since this is your business and income)  @christianselig Fuck, I’m so sorry. Just an absolutely shitty fucking thing, I’ve got nothing to say but I’m sorry. Fuck Reddit, I never could use the service without Apollo so I guess I just won’t be using Reddit. @christianselig thanks for the transparency and hard work you put into Apollo. I've already long ditched my Reddit account because of this insanity. @christianselig So sad to hear that. Can not understand how platforms these days treat developers who helped grow the platforms and make them better in many ways. @christianselig Maybe if a number of 3rd party apps all end up losing support at the same time it'll trigger enough of an exodus to something decentralised. A few years ago I'd have balked at the idea but Mastodon is doing great! @christianselig Oof! That's unsupportable. Let us know if you decide to make an app for a different, better service than Reddit. I don't suppose they've said when the wall will drop?  @christianselig I guess that’s it for me as well. Bye, Reddit. Sorry it had to end like this, but Reddit without Apollo is not worth it.  @christianselig This sucks, I love Apollo. I’d be willing to subscribe, but likely not for the amount you’d need. Like, $20-$40 per year is a maybe. More than that and I’m likely to find a new time sink. @christianselig I’m sorry Christian. I used to earn my primary income from a Google Reader app so I know a bit how it feels. Reddit will lose me as a premium subscriber. I won’t pay that to use their first party app or (shudders) their mobile web site.  @christianselig damn that sucks! I hope some public pressure will sway them! @christianselig I said this on Bluesky, and repeating it here: This is awful; I'm sorry. Twitter killing third-party apps (Tweetbot) killed my remaining desire to use Twitter; not being able to use Apollo would be the same for Reddit and me - I hope it doesn't come to that. I'm an Apollo Ultra Lifetime member and would happily pay a recurring subscription fee.  @christianselig Time to copy Tapbots -> Ivory and invest in the Fediverse Reddit alternatives! Lemmy is the most mature: https://join-lemmy.org/ But there is also kbin: https://kbin.pub/en And brutalinks: https://brutalinks.tech/  @christianselig I remember them saying they care about third party apps, too. Clearly that’s not the case if they’re trying to price them all out! I don’t know a single dev that’ll pay that sort of money lol @christianselig So sorry to hear that. Maybe instead they buy Apollo for $20 million and then you can work on Pixel Pals full time? @christianselig How viable would it be to build a Reddit alternative on ActivityPub... only half-joking. @weston ActivityPub-based Reddit alternatives already exist; there’s https://join-lemmy.org/ and another one whose name I can’t remember. There might be more as well.  @christianselig My sincere condolences 🫤. Like everyone else, I detest the official Reddit app UI. It is simply not possible to revert to a horrible app. The website is even worse, unfortunately. @christianselig I’ve been an Apollo Pro + SPCA Icon pack customer for a long while now. Just bought your Achoo HTML Viewer extension for Safari to show some support. I know it’s not much, but thought it was important to do *something*.   @Mecid @christianselig Wow, that’s an shockingly obscene move on their behalf. Sorry to hear that was the result.   (not) great to see that once one well-sized social media platform adopts a paid API others start adopting it, completely screwing over developers which create applications in their free time. Truly saddening. @christianselig Well I’m done with Reddit I guess. I don’t have their app, refuse to install it, and I won’t use the web version either. @christianselig I feel so sorry for you, I can’t imagine the way you must feel right now. @christianselig Don’t really have much to say besides thanks for your work. I won’t ever use the official app or new Reddit in the browser. If Apollo goes away for whatever reason my Reddit usage will plummet. I will be happy to support the app, but Reddit needs to BTFO and be more reasonable   @christianselig wow... while I get a "free ride" wasn't forever, this.... ouch. I'm so sorry Christian. Love Apollo, pay for it, great app. @christianselig @christianselig I just straight up cannot fathom why products with APIs fortunate enough to have apps of Apollo’s caliber would ever light that on fire for the sake of goosing other metrics.  @christianselig yikes. when old.reddit.com goes away, i guess that's it for Reddit. I'll get so many hours back in my day, though!  @christianselig if reddit wants to go the way of Twitter, I am excited to learn the next Fediverse tool they will be replaced by. @christianselig I honestly don’t know what to say, I appreciate that this is your passion and livelihood, no doubt the uncertainty you now have is incredibly stressful. I know they said ‘the price is the price’ but let’s hope some ensuing media coverage helps push it down. In the worst case; people lose their jobs and their livelihood every day - it’s unpleasant and disruptive - but good, smart people pull themselves together and find alternatives. You’re a good, smart person. @christianselig are you planning to migrate to Lemmy? Seems the only smart and safe move at this point. @christianselig how many users do you have? Could you raise prices to cover expanded costs? @christianselig That’s ridiculous. They could as well just disable the API altogether. Same outcome. Bye Reddit I guess. Not going to use their app. @christianselig Oh my, so sorry to hear that. Hope all turns out well in the end. @slizeray stumbled across your message by pure chance. reminded me to finally subscribe to your app too!  @christianselig this makes me so sad. I genuinely like Reddit and get a lot out of it. But I hate their app. Gonna have to do some soul searching if this all goes the way it seems like it’s going to go.  @christianselig I really suspect my usage of Reddit is going to disappear over this. Apollo is what made Reddit good. @christianselig #Apollo is the only way I use #Reddit. Can Apollo be rebuilt for #Lemmy? Would love to see an alternative to Reddit we can move to. I haven’t used Lemmy enough so far to comment.  @Jdreben @christianselig all I know is that lemmy happily has a hard separation between its backend and frontend, including having a semi official alternative frontend that is more like a forum. So I’m betting it’s more than possible. There probably need to be more lemmy instances put up. The sort of flagship has a particular vibe that isn’t for everyone and takes a while to get an account on. Some diversity could go a long way in this moment. @maegul @Jdreben @christianselig I'm a beehaw.org fan myself :) and yes we need more instances and more non-lemmy.ml users |
@christianselig terrible news. I hope they come around to a more reasonable price.
Is there a particularly expensive method or endpoint that could be surgically removed, or is it sort of blankety expensive?