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myrmepropagandist

And Then Satan Said:

We are going to separate into breakout groups of five people, after 8 min. each group will present what they discussed in the main group.

72 comments
MooMoo the Cat

@futurebird And to that I say, "Not today, Satan!"

Sue Wainscott

@futurebird “don’t forget to complete the icebreaker activity before you dig into the group work!”

SallyBlack

@futurebird
"We discussed as a group how much we hate this group discussion bs"

Jonah Duckles

@futurebird genuinely curious: is it any better for you if the report out from the group is done in a document, and nobody is put on the spot to report out? I guess I’m asking which part is the most annoying in the experience for you.

myrmepropagandist

@jduckles

I think the annoying part is that the topics being discussed are either:

1. too complex to hash out in 8 min
2. too vague and poorly defined so all you get are pithy platitudes

I've been asked to develop an anti-racism policy like this, to discuss how to make a school community welcoming, just wild stuff for the format--

It's OK for helping people get to know each other, or for the most surface level kinds of consensus building.

I guess it's the feeling time is being wasted.

@jduckles

I think the annoying part is that the topics being discussed are either:

1. too complex to hash out in 8 min
2. too vague and poorly defined so all you get are pithy platitudes

I've been asked to develop an anti-racism policy like this, to discuss how to make a school community welcoming, just wild stuff for the format--

Peter Kisner ≈

@futurebird @jduckles
This brings to mind a horror story/cautionary tale:

In the early 2000s, a friend told me of an incident where some (white and cleanly clueless) college residence life administrators were tasked with coming up with and implementing a diversity training program for staff.
1/x

Peter Kisner ≈

@futurebird @jduckles
Not sure where they got the idea for this specific exercise, but what they came up with consisted of two parts:

1) Break out group members were required to share all the slurs they could think of regarding each other.

2) Then they would discuss their feelings about these words.

Already this sounds like a possibility recipe for things to go badly (as some staff warned the organizers). But they went ahead with it anyway and it gets worse:
2/x

@futurebird @jduckles
Not sure where they got the idea for this specific exercise, but what they came up with consisted of two parts:

1) Break out group members were required to share all the slurs they could think of regarding each other.

2) Then they would discuss their feelings about these words.

myrmepropagandist

@PTR_K @jduckles

"were required to share all the slurs they could think of regarding each other"

WAT

Peter Kisner ≈

@futurebird @jduckles
From a lot of second hand exposure, I get the impression there is (or at least used to be, before so many college closings) a lot of "rise to your level of incompetence" in college admin.

It's equally possible they came up with this idea on their own, or latched onto some badly designed training material, or misinterpreted and mis-applied some better training material. But refusal to listen to objections or concerns seemed pretty standard.

myrmepropagandist

@PTR_K @jduckles

"But refusal to listen to objections or concerns seemed pretty standard."

So they sucked at the thing they were ostensibly trying to teach basically.

Peter Kisner ≈

@futurebird @jduckles
This training was sandwiched between several other types of training for the day. And the day was behind schedule.

So after part 1 of this training, the organizers decided there was no time for part 2. People who had just been insulted or coerced into insulting others were left to sort things out for themselves.

Staff who participated ended up furious with each other (for using slurs) and with the administrators who organized the thing.
3/3

@futurebird @jduckles
This training was sandwiched between several other types of training for the day. And the day was behind schedule.

So after part 1 of this training, the organizers decided there was no time for part 2. People who had just been insulted or coerced into insulting others were left to sort things out for themselves.

Ben Rosengart

@PTR_K @futurebird @jduckles There’s something about assigning this sensitive task (designing the training) to untrained young people that suggests to me that the professionals involved had contempt for the whole premise, ya know?

Peter Kisner ≈

@fivetonsflax @futurebird @jduckles
Not impossible. But given the temperaments of people I knew at that level during that decade, I get the impression the thought process was more like, "Okay, I guess this is a thing we have to pay attention to now. How hard can it be?"

Combined with a mindset, "I am at this level of administration, therefore all my ideas are automatically more correct than those below me."

Bethany Berger

@fivetonsflax @PTR_K @futurebird @jduckles We had a pretty terrible training from an ostensibly trained person—it was about 15 years ago though & the ones I’ve attended more recently have been better

Jonah Duckles

@futurebird Thanks for sharing. I've been learning a lot about the Māori (indigenous Neew Zealanders) ways of doing and being, and they make clear time for the acts of relationship building, as a requirement, before you can do real work together. When those two are conjoined, meet the people, and GET TO WORK. Things usually don't go well, and most time is spent on meeting, not working. When I facilitate, I like to make more relational time than working time early. It pays dividends later on.

Aaron

@jduckles @futurebird I'm just going to pop in here for a sec to interject:

I'm #autistic. Yes, it's better if nobody is on the spot. No, that is not enough to make it good or even okay. The forced socialization, abrupt transitions, and time pressure all make it a big nope. And no, it's not "annoying". It's *terrifying*.

So please, anybody reading this who might consider doing what even Satan himself would not do*: Please, remember the importance of accessibility when planning meetings. Not everyone is stamped from the same cookie cutter.

*see other comments for reference

@jduckles @futurebird I'm just going to pop in here for a sec to interject:

I'm #autistic. Yes, it's better if nobody is on the spot. No, that is not enough to make it good or even okay. The forced socialization, abrupt transitions, and time pressure all make it a big nope. And no, it's not "annoying". It's *terrifying*.

𝖆𝔫𝔡𝔯𝔢𝔴 :enby_rebel:

@futurebird And he did rub his hands, for he knew by the time the last group came to speak, there would be nothing new to say.

Michael Kohlman

@futurebird
Clearly a participant in at least one Leadership Training Program:

llewelly

@futurebird the group version of breakout never lived up to the promise of the one person arcade game

David Rolfe

@llewelly @futurebird

What about “warlords” for the 2600, that’s 4 person breakout and is still fun!

llewelly

@Dorolfe @futurebird I confess I've never played it, nor owned a 2600

myrmepropagandist

@llewelly @Dorolfe

I think he meant the hacking club that meets monthly called 2600... after the uh... modem.

David Rolfe

@llewelly
If you see one at a stoop/garage sale with warlords and paddles (the “dial” controllers) it’s a good time. :p

David Rolfe

@bornach @llewelly @futurebird

Yes, this is the one this is the jam.

The other 2600 was named after the 2600 Hz tone that a blue box makes to signal the phone system to connect the following dtmf tones as a long distance call. Phreaking. 🤓😎😁

Colopen

@futurebird breakout groups are the worst. 🙅🏾‍♀️🙅🏾‍♀️🙅🏾‍♀️

ginguin (bean)

@futurebird I am guilty of asking people to do this. Heck, I think it’s baked into the day tomorrow!

Kschaffs

@futurebird and nothing of importance happens. Ever.

James Guilford

@futurebird @MissPixiePancake Damn! You and those replying are giving me “Meeting PTSD”. 😫 Brings back horrifying memories of hours wasted in ostensibly worthwhile … e x e r c I s e s !

Claire Querée

@futurebird 😂 Thank you for my first laugh of the day!

Scrambles

@futurebird OMG those types of sessions are the WORST! :blobugh:

Aunt Eef

@futurebird I HATE breakout sessions with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns 🌞 🌞 🌞 😡 🤬

aburka 🫣

@futurebird Last time I was at one of these meetings I left when I heard the phrase "breakout rooms". Afterwards I asked a few coworkers what I missed but none of them knew because they had all done the same.

twelve_floating_hands

@futurebird

"Our sole finding is that breakout groups suck"

Patty Kimura

@futurebird The five HR people circles of Hell. Been there.

FoolishOwl

@futurebird After seven minutes of discussion, you realize you've only discussed the first question from a list of five,

At 7:55, "Who's going to report back?"

7:59, "Did anyone take n--"

Phil Thane ✅

@futurebird Did Satan nominate a raporteur to take notes and summarise the discussion? Or does each breakout group spend the first 7½ mins arguing about that?

Andres "🧠🐛✊" Salomon

@futurebird Satan was really pissed that I didn't fill out my nametag. Fucking whiny little..

Tim

@futurebird "So... *nervous looks on the webcams* ...who wants to start?

eribosot

@futurebird After 5-6 minutes, Satan starts circling the room, asking each group how it's coming along, reminding them of the amount of time left.

mmby

@futurebird I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain: one always finds one's burden again...

FirefighterGeek :masto:

@futurebird Did this my first time in a growing company. I was foolish and young and thought we really were meant to do something.

As each of our breakout groups was working on "it's idea" for our assigned topic, the BSD came around and and "discussed" our topic.

It became clear that we as a breakout weren't there to come up with anything other than the piece of the pre-determined plan we'd been assigned -- seemingly on our own.

It was idea "dissemination" not "generation" at all.

Ted Cadwallader

@FirefighterGeek @futurebird I have a similar experience. Being unaware of corporate speak at the time we were asked to “blue sky” some new ideas. After coming up with some great ones we were told to implement them…with no new budget. Never fell for that again.

Mackaj

@futurebird

Forming
Storming
Norming
Performing

Satan: you have 8 minutes, starting now ...

Chris Dolunt

@futurebird

“We must picture Hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”

- C.S. Lewis, preface to "The Screwtape Letters", 1961

Michela Marie 🇨🇦

@futurebird He’s been like this ever since he went through that PMP certification course.

FoolishOwl

@futurebird The worst is when you actually start to have a real discussion, and then you're at 30 seconds before returning to the main group, you didn't choose who would present, and you only talked about the first question.

Thomas Sturm

@futurebird This has in my experience never produced any useful results. Not once. Ever.

David J. Atkinson #🟦

@futurebird If I believed in Hell, it would include this. I enjoy the breakouts; it is the need to come back that stings.

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