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Jonah Duckles

@futurebird genuinely curious: is it any better for you if the report out from the group is done in a document, and nobody is put on the spot to report out? I guess I’m asking which part is the most annoying in the experience for you.

17 Jul 2023 at 22:07 | Wall-to-wall | Open on monogram.org
16 comments
myrmepropagandist

@jduckles

I think the annoying part is that the topics being discussed are either:

1. too complex to hash out in 8 min
2. too vague and poorly defined so all you get are pithy platitudes

I've been asked to develop an anti-racism policy like this, to discuss how to make a school community welcoming, just wild stuff for the format--

It's OK for helping people get to know each other, or for the most surface level kinds of consensus building.

I guess it's the feeling time is being wasted.

@jduckles

I think the annoying part is that the topics being discussed are either:

1. too complex to hash out in 8 min
2. too vague and poorly defined so all you get are pithy platitudes

I've been asked to develop an anti-racism policy like this, to discuss how to make a school community welcoming, just wild stuff for the format--

17 Jul 2023 at 22:49 | Open on sauropods.win
Peter Kisner ≈

@futurebird @jduckles
This brings to mind a horror story/cautionary tale:

In the early 2000s, a friend told me of an incident where some (white and cleanly clueless) college residence life administrators were tasked with coming up with and implementing a diversity training program for staff.
1/x

18 Jul 2023 at 0:58 | Open on dice.camp
Peter Kisner ≈

@futurebird @jduckles
Not sure where they got the idea for this specific exercise, but what they came up with consisted of two parts:

1) Break out group members were required to share all the slurs they could think of regarding each other.

2) Then they would discuss their feelings about these words.

Already this sounds like a possibility recipe for things to go badly (as some staff warned the organizers). But they went ahead with it anyway and it gets worse:
2/x

@futurebird @jduckles
Not sure where they got the idea for this specific exercise, but what they came up with consisted of two parts:

1) Break out group members were required to share all the slurs they could think of regarding each other.

2) Then they would discuss their feelings about these words.

18 Jul 2023 at 0:59 | Open on dice.camp
myrmepropagandist

@PTR_K @jduckles

"were required to share all the slurs they could think of regarding each other"

WAT

18 Jul 2023 at 1:00 | Open on sauropods.win
Peter Kisner ≈

@futurebird @jduckles
From a lot of second hand exposure, I get the impression there is (or at least used to be, before so many college closings) a lot of "rise to your level of incompetence" in college admin.

It's equally possible they came up with this idea on their own, or latched onto some badly designed training material, or misinterpreted and mis-applied some better training material. But refusal to listen to objections or concerns seemed pretty standard.

18 Jul 2023 at 1:17 | Open on dice.camp
myrmepropagandist

@PTR_K @jduckles

"But refusal to listen to objections or concerns seemed pretty standard."

So they sucked at the thing they were ostensibly trying to teach basically.

18 Jul 2023 at 1:18 | Open on sauropods.win
Peter Kisner ≈

@futurebird @jduckles
This training was sandwiched between several other types of training for the day. And the day was behind schedule.

So after part 1 of this training, the organizers decided there was no time for part 2. People who had just been insulted or coerced into insulting others were left to sort things out for themselves.

Staff who participated ended up furious with each other (for using slurs) and with the administrators who organized the thing.
3/3

@futurebird @jduckles
This training was sandwiched between several other types of training for the day. And the day was behind schedule.

So after part 1 of this training, the organizers decided there was no time for part 2. People who had just been insulted or coerced into insulting others were left to sort things out for themselves.

18 Jul 2023 at 1:04 | Open on dice.camp
Ben Rosengart

@PTR_K @futurebird @jduckles There’s something about assigning this sensitive task (designing the training) to untrained young people that suggests to me that the professionals involved had contempt for the whole premise, ya know?

18 Jul 2023 at 1:11 | Open on tilde.zone
Peter Kisner ≈

@fivetonsflax @futurebird @jduckles
Not impossible. But given the temperaments of people I knew at that level during that decade, I get the impression the thought process was more like, "Okay, I guess this is a thing we have to pay attention to now. How hard can it be?"

Combined with a mindset, "I am at this level of administration, therefore all my ideas are automatically more correct than those below me."

18 Jul 2023 at 1:23 | Open on dice.camp
Bethany Berger

@fivetonsflax @PTR_K @futurebird @jduckles We had a pretty terrible training from an ostensibly trained person—it was about 15 years ago though & the ones I’ve attended more recently have been better

18 Jul 2023 at 1:25 | Open on mstdn.social
Jonah Duckles

@futurebird Thanks for sharing. I've been learning a lot about the Māori (indigenous Neew Zealanders) ways of doing and being, and they make clear time for the acts of relationship building, as a requirement, before you can do real work together. When those two are conjoined, meet the people, and GET TO WORK. Things usually don't go well, and most time is spent on meeting, not working. When I facilitate, I like to make more relational time than working time early. It pays dividends later on.

18 Jul 2023 at 14:51 | Open on monogram.org
Aaron

@jduckles @futurebird I'm just going to pop in here for a sec to interject:

I'm #autistic. Yes, it's better if nobody is on the spot. No, that is not enough to make it good or even okay. The forced socialization, abrupt transitions, and time pressure all make it a big nope. And no, it's not "annoying". It's *terrifying*.

So please, anybody reading this who might consider doing what even Satan himself would not do*: Please, remember the importance of accessibility when planning meetings. Not everyone is stamped from the same cookie cutter.

*see other comments for reference

@jduckles @futurebird I'm just going to pop in here for a sec to interject:

I'm #autistic. Yes, it's better if nobody is on the spot. No, that is not enough to make it good or even okay. The forced socialization, abrupt transitions, and time pressure all make it a big nope. And no, it's not "annoying". It's *terrifying*.

18 Jul 2023 at 16:45 | Open on techhub.social
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