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mcc

- Firefox's "Privacy-preserving" ad tracking has other interesting issues. In another way the new ad snitching is worse than the old tracker cookies, Firefox doesn't *tell* you what data it's collected or reported, and unlike with cookies doesn't give you the ability to delete recorded "impressions".

Also interestingly, the feature is not available to *all* advertisers currently, only a "small number" of partner sites. *Firefox doesn't disclose who they are*, again making this worse than $GOOG.

190 comments
mcc

- This event seems to tie in with other confusing developments around Mozilla as a company/"Foundation". I do not know enough about these issues to comment on them intelligently. I know only that Mozilla has, inexplicably for a nominal nonprofit, recently bought an advertising firm: mastodon.social/@jwz/112650295

and that I have seen… let's say "criticism" of recent changes to the board makeup: spiceworks.com/tech/tech-gener

- This event seems to tie in with other confusing developments around Mozilla as a company/"Foundation". I do not know enough about these issues to comment on them intelligently. I know only that Mozilla has, inexplicably for a nominal nonprofit, recently bought an advertising firm: mastodon.social/@jwz/112650295

mcc

Anyway, I guess that's a lot of typing. The TLDR is:

- There is now a feature labeled "Privacy-preserving ad measurement" near the bottom of your Firefox Privacy settings. I recommend turning it off, or switching to a more privacy-conscious browser such as Google Chrome.

- I have filed two bugs on Firefox about this, which I am choosing not to link to dissuade brigading. If I have not been banned from the bug tracker by next week I will file another bug about the ChatGPT integration in nightly

Happiness for Stray the Cat

@mcc maybe i just need to give up on not be a product, but to concentrate on how to be a terrible product.

Mx Verda

@Bigshellevent @mcc I can’t find it now but there was a user program that generated garbage data to mask your movements. I think it was called Noize, Noisr, or something

bob

@mcc this sort of stuff is the reason why I use librewolf

Xandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️

@bob @mcc LibreWolf is really good, I just wish I could relax the timezone masking... ah, well.

bob

@xgranade @mcc librewolf has really good build tooling that makes compiling from source a reasonable thing to do. you can have your own patches if you wnat

mcc replied to bob

@bob @xgranade In this situation (or in the situation where I use LibreWolf official builds for that matter) will LibreWolf contain the drm modules that would allow me to use (for example) Tidal on LibreWolf for Windows?

KDHofAvalon :HeartNonbinary: replied to mcc

@mcc Yes, LibreWolf has everything needed to play DRM media included, it's just disabled by default. You enable it in "Settings -> General" just like in Firefox

mcc replied to KDHofAvalon

@KDHofAvalon thanks. Can this module be integrated in a case where I compiled my own copy of LibreWolf?

KDHofAvalon :HeartNonbinary: replied to mcc

@mcc That, I don't know. I haven't had a need to compile it myself yet in my testing. LibreWolf is just a fork of Firefox though, so it it works there it should also work for LibreWolf

mcc

@xgranade @bob Yeah, this is the problem with using "privacy-conscious software". Privacy is not a very high priority for me. It's just the situation has got *so* bad that even I, a person who doesn't give a shit, is worrying about privacy

Xandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️ replied to mcc

@mcc @bob One of the most fundamental aspects of privacy is autonomy — being able to choose how much you share, with whom, and how. Contrary to how most privacy-conscious software projects tend to see it, that isn't always "no information shared ever." I wish it was easier to tune and express autonomy instead of either just locking everything to zero or letting ad-tech run my life.

mcc replied to Xandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️

@xgranade @bob Yeah. Actually, more than half of the time when I get angry about a privacy violation, the thing I am angry about is not actually the privacy violation but that the company doing the privacy violation *lied to me*. I want to be able to make decisions and have them be honored.

HyperSoop :spinny_cat_aroace: :spinny_fox_agender: replied to mcc

@mcc @xgranade @bob go to the "librewolf" tab in the options and disable ResistFingerprinting. i'll admit it's not intuitive enough if you don't know exactly what rfp is.

yuki - queen of the snow
@bob @mcc i tried librewolf. unfortunately, it seems to force disable some acfessibility features i need, so i can't use it
DELETED

@bob @mcc Isn't librewolf is just Arkenfox built-in?

bob

@eilidh @mcc no, it's an actual fork of the firefox C++ codebase

Ongion

@mcc I'm sorry, the ChatGPT integration???

tarot bird

@mcc "a more privacy-conscious browser such as Google Chrome" is such a cursed phrase 🤢

We really need a new browser from someone that isn't in thrall to adtech, AI bullshit, or fascist politics

Chris 🦑

@morganmay @mcc thought the same. Isn't #Brave the go-to alternative for Chrome lovers?

Lunar 🛸 ♾

@sturmsucht @morganmay @mcc Unfortunately that's not safe either. Between the weird cryptomining feature and the transphobic CEO, there's a lot to go wrong there.

Chris 🦑 replied to Lunar 🛸 ♾

@lunarloony @morganmay @mcc Oh, didn't know that. The crypto bro thing is omnipresent of course. 🙄 Any links so I can read myself in?

jesterchen42

@mcc Wow. If the direct comparison leads to sentences like "or switching to a more privacy-conscious browser such as Google Chrome", things must be REALLY off. (Yeah, they are.)

So, which browser is still a good approach?! I'm so tired of all the enshittification!

And of ChatGPT and all the other LLM stuff! 😤😒

mcc

@jesterchen I've been hearing about LibreWolf, but I don't know enough about it to endorse it.

The Notorious GDB

@mcc @jesterchen LibreWolf is decent. Firefox is more polished, but LibreWolf definitely has the privacy defaults ert to max to the point where I loosened settings to allow for a better login experience.

Definitely worth a try if FF is getting bad.

ZanaGB

@mcc at first i thought this was satire. Then i read the rest of the thread.

What in the olympic fuck

Nazo

@mcc I wouldn't really say "witching to a more privacy-conscious browser such as Google Chrome." Chrome/Chromium has done stuff like this before multiple times and a number of other privacy violations as well. They did this one thing better (ish), but I would absolutely not under any circumstances call them "privacy-conscious" or implying switching to them would be better.

mcc

@nazokiyoubinbou It is possible part of my goal with that post was to make an unusual statement so as to underline the extremity of the current situation.

Nazo

@mcc Well, you have to be careful with that sort of thing. It is very easy for people to take it literally.

I admit I have a problem with that in general, taking stuff literally that everyone else finds very obviously not literal (Asperger's thing I guess,) but I think a lot of people also defer to such statements when it comes to complex things (especially tech.)

damien

@mcc for completeness' sake, i found a Reddit thread where ppl raised an issue about that 'feature'

- reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/
- in which a Mozilla dev commented and sent an explainer about the feature that Mozila has on Github. I haven't read it yet but i figure it'd be useful to read for people who care about that github.com/mozilla/explainers/

demize

@Eramdam @mcc having given it a quick read I think I agree with andi here more than I did before I read the explainer

like... I guess the intentions are good? but they're coming from a position of "we need to make the web more useful to advertisers" and that's an inherently bad position, and any intentions you have that come from it are also inherently bad, ultimately

we need to stop capitulating to advertisers and investors. the stance mozilla seems to have taken as late, of "we need to show everyone else how this can be done responsibly, because they're doing it irresponsibly" is one I reject outright and this solution only makes sense if you accept that stance

@Eramdam @mcc having given it a quick read I think I agree with andi here more than I did before I read the explainer

like... I guess the intentions are good? but they're coming from a position of "we need to make the web more useful to advertisers" and that's an inherently bad position, and any intentions you have that come from it are also inherently bad, ultimately

damien

@demize @mcc for clarity i wasn't saying andi is wrong. Just adding onto the thread for ppl who might have found that interesting + I feel the explainer is more technical than whatever copy Mozilla uses in their support documentation.

damien replied to damien

@demize @mcc *personally* don't care much, i disabled the feature but i have a pihole/ublock set up so whatever 'non-private' tracking may happen in a result of that is probably not very useful to anybody (and i wouldnt see the ads fed off said tracking lol)

That said, even despite all that I'll stick to Firefox for a while because, like, I'm concerned about the engine homogeneity and sadly Firefox is basically my only option.

Safari on macOS could be an option but I need Windows support and the extensions story still sucks there if you want niche stuff.

I might change my tune when/if Firefox becomes less customisable than it is and "it's not Blink/WebKit" is the only argument but thankfully we're not there yet.

And I guess I'm also married to Tab Containers, every other browser's really wants me to use whole-ass profiles and that's just overkill and clunky imo lol

@demize @mcc *personally* don't care much, i disabled the feature but i have a pihole/ublock set up so whatever 'non-private' tracking may happen in a result of that is probably not very useful to anybody (and i wouldnt see the ads fed off said tracking lol)

That said, even despite all that I'll stick to Firefox for a while because, like, I'm concerned about the engine homogeneity and sadly Firefox is basically my only option.

demize replied to damien

@Eramdam @mcc yeah. I’m not thrilled with Mozilla here but I still think they’re the only good option that’s not just Chromium wearing a hat, and Google is throwing their weight around threatening even worse stuff with Chrome :/

mcc

@Eramdam I am definitely interested in technical details if only so I can criticize it more precisely

Rich Felker

@mcc Google Chrome, or even degoogled Chromium, is NOT "a more privacy-conscious browser". It's 1000x worse. Yes this is (yet another) betrayal by Mozilla management clowns, but in browsers like in politics, "X betrayed us" doesn't justify "so we should turn to Y who was 1000x worse to begin with".

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@mcc super bad shenanigans. Thanks for your info on the matter!

In my version 127 I also noticed two telemetry settings turned on, which I sure as hell didn't do myself. Sick of it. Firefox is dead.

social.coop/@smallcircles/1127

Harry W.

@mcc Link about the AI integration if people want to know more.
I can see *why* they've done it. But really wish they wouldn't....

blog.nightly.mozilla.org/2024/

kapsiR

@mcc websites which registered an origin-trial token can use it now.

wiki.mozilla.org/Origin_Trials

I assume the default setting will be changed after the trial period. @mozilla @s_hentzschel

I'd not recommend Chrome as an alternative! There are so many (default) features that are worse in case of privacy ...

Sören Hentzschel

@kapsiR @mcc t looks like @mcc has not understood the issue at all. From a privacy point of view, there is no question that advertising without tracking is better than advertising with tracking. Simply blocking everything will not solve the problem. Even security features like HSTS are being abused for tracking these days. If you really want to eliminate tracking, you have to offer alternatives where everyone wins - users and advertisers. 1/n

Sören Hentzschel

@kapsiR @mcc The web must enable business models, otherwise the open web would be in acute danger. Many websites would die or only be accessible behind paywalls. That is a fact. And for advertising to be effective (and for vast amounts of money not to be wasted), it is important to be able to display advertising based on interests. So far, this has only been possible by tracking users. And this is exactly what Mozilla wants to improve - for the benefit of users. 2/n

Sören Hentzschel

@kapsiR @mcc Mozilla has also clearly stated that they are currently still in the phase of designing the corresponding standard. The first step is to find out whether PPA provides data that is so good to work with that tracking is no longer necessary, or whether further improvements are required. The data cannot be collected if it has to be explicitly activated. 3/n

Sören Hentzschel

@kapsiR @mcc But an opt-in would not make sense in the long term either. The technologies that are misused for tracking are also enabled by default. If the better method is not enabled by default, it would not be used - and we will still have the tracking of users. This is also totally clear. 4/5

Sören Hentzschel replied to Sören

@kapsiR @mcc To claim that Firefox is worse than Chrome, the product of the world's largest advertising service provider and tracker, when it comes to privacy issues is almost unbeatable in terms of absurdity and can only lead to the conclusion that this is an attempt to troll. 5/5

Simon Brooke

@mcc Thank $DEITY that #Debian is still on 115.12! One of those occasions when being behind the curve is good.

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