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Remença

@sjuvonen @tinker

Very good comment that serves as motivation for my main point, which expressed in polite terms would something like THE PROBLEM IS NOT AI THE PROBLEM IS F*CKING CAPITALISM. As you accurately describe, what incentive has Sam Altman to share his AI, there is it none. The solution is eliminating Sam Altman and all their ilk. In other words, getting rid of capitalism would solve all of this problems.

50 comments
Remença

@sjuvonen @tinker

Oh, I see you have a good job and you are probably happy living in capitalism, I understand it now.

Remença

@tinker @sjuvonen

It is not an ad-hominem (or at least not entirely), I am just implying that he might be having a conflict of interests here.

Remença

@sjuvonen @tinker

Therefore I do not understand why you seem to criticize my answer of "what we need to do is to get rid of capitalists"

Sami Juvonen replied to Remença

@remenca @tinker You didn’t answer any of my questions with your “smash capitalism!” response.

Current AI tech is capitalism distilled, so I don’t understand how you think it is going to free you from toil, or capitalism.

DMTea replied to Sami

@sjuvonen @remenca @tinker nuclear power and nuclear medicine, which both save an incredible number of lives, are here because the tech started as a weapon of mass death.

Nobody wants mass death. But the science was good and matured into something very useful.

AI can do just that if it’s not strangled by capitalism along the way. Thats why it’s important to point to good applications while criticizing theft and energy use. We can do both.

Remença replied to DMTea

@DMTea @sjuvonen @tinker

I totally agree with you what means that I must have expressed myself horribly.

DMTea replied to Remença

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker it’s okay- I wasn’t very patient with my reply, so sorry if I misunderstood. If you agree, then I have no problem with you or your post. I hope wherever you are, you have a good day :)

Remença replied to DMTea

@DMTea @sjuvonen @tinker

Don't apologize, it is not your fault, it is really my English :) I normally engage in debates in internet that are often beyond my level and from time to time it just happens that I do not explain myself correctly, but it is a good practice anyway.

Have a nice weekend. Greetings from Barcelona.

Remença replied to Sami

@sjuvonen @tinker

That is because it is in capitalist hands, which is my entire point. We only need to seize it, like any other means of production, and socialize it's benefits. For instance, if you are an artist and you work has been used for training an AI, you should perceive the proportional part of whatever it would have been paid to generate an image with that AI.

Remença replied to Remença

@sjuvonen @tinker

Finally, if we theorize on what would happening AI would reach parity with humans, we could just put AI to do all the work while we could spend our days doing whatever we enjoy, be it drawing or being at the bar.

Sami Juvonen replied to Remença

@remenca @tinker You would be OK with enslaving human level intelligences?

Remença replied to Sami

@sjuvonen @tinker

I would be ok with a AI that makes the work I do not want to do.

Sami Juvonen replied to Remença

@remenca @tinker You better be careful what you wish for. You wish to be made redundant by an AI.

When you dig down, there appear to be two kinds of AI boosters (who are not shareholders in a hot company).

One group wants slaves.

One group wants to build a god and become its priesthood.

The common thread is that both enforce and encode a strict hierarchy in society.

Remença replied to Sami

@sjuvonen @tinker I guess that a third one uses false dichotomies to win discussions, because I see another option which is: the AI are socialized and the profits produced are distributed among the people.

Шуро replied to Sami

@tinker @remenca @sjuvonen I think it is wrong to think in such form.

First AI is nowhere near approaching let alone enslaving human intelligence. Right now AI is not even intelligence and it is unclear if it will make that leap to become one. Maybe it will forever stay just advanced text autocomplete and information guesser.

Second - it is just a tool. Bad or good but a tool. Sure in some aspects it surpasses certain human abilities. Just like a car is faster than human natural movement and it allows carrying much greater weight over much longer distances. But it supplements our abilities not enslaves us.

Talking of AI as potentially omnipotent evil is just adding to the hype.

@tinker @remenca @sjuvonen I think it is wrong to think in such form.

First AI is nowhere near approaching let alone enslaving human intelligence. Right now AI is not even intelligence and it is unclear if it will make that leap to become one. Maybe it will forever stay just advanced text autocomplete and information guesser.

http :verified: replied to Remença

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker That is exactly what will not happen. The exact same ("being able to relax and let the machines do the work") was predicted when steam engines and later electricity came up. And look at us now. Even more work and those things you can use the machines for are expected from you anyway, even if you don't need to spend many hours of your day washing clothes by hand or plowing a field with an ox. But yes, also AI will increase our overall productivity to a new level that will be expected from everyone. And you will still have no time to relax, but hopefully a slightly better life.

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker That is exactly what will not happen. The exact same ("being able to relax and let the machines do the work") was predicted when steam engines and later electricity came up. And look at us now. Even more work and those things you can use the machines for are expected from you anyway, even if you don't need to spend many hours of your day washing clothes by hand or plowing a field with an ox. But yes, also AI will increase our overall productivity to a new level that will...

Remença replied to http

@http @sjuvonen @tinker

I totally agree. Actually, this was my point all the time. But with single catch. You failed to mention why this will and has happened. And the reason is because those technological improvements have been always in hands of the rich. It is not a problem of technology itself, it is a problem of who owns it. It is a political problem. Therefore, it makes no sense to blame AI for it. It is like blaming laundry machines for the loss of jobs of the launderers.

http :verified: replied to Remença

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker I fail to see the political thing in it. We all have electricity and laundry machines now and profit from cheap food, not just "the rich". And we cannot relax and let the machines do most of our work; it's just that our work has changed to most of us being no longer farmers. Same I expect for AI. I have no idea where AI will be most successful, but if it can produce "better art" or "more secure coders" (both not the case now, by far) or whatever, then these jobs will be replaced and we will do even harder work on things AI cannot do.

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker I fail to see the political thing in it. We all have electricity and laundry machines now and profit from cheap food, not just "the rich". And we cannot relax and let the machines do most of our work; it's just that our work has changed to most of us being no longer farmers. Same I expect for AI. I have no idea where AI will be most successful, but if it can produce "better art" or "more secure coders" (both not the case now, by far) or whatever, then these jobs will be...

Remença replied to http

@http @sjuvonen @tinker

I'm tempted to reply but think it will be better if you reach the conclusion by yourself, so I will only ask: You say that if AI takes over our jobs we will end doing the more menial tasks that AI cannot do. But those task must have been being done now anyway, no? So what will change?

http :verified: replied to Remença

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker New kind of jobs and especially services came out of electrification. I don't expect that AI will take only the mental part and we end up with currently existing jobs of being hairdressers and waiters, but instead new services will emerge. 200 years ago, nobody could imagine a world with most jobs being not a farmer or craftsman.

Remença replied to http

@http @sjuvonen @tinker

I'm not a native speaker and sometimes I'm unable to convey what I meant. My question was more to point that those menial jobs, like farmer or waiter, that cannot be automatized with AI (at least in its present incarnation) are already being fulfilled by humans, so it does not matter how much AI we add to society, those jobs will still to be done all the same. Nothing will change in that regard.

Remença replied to http

@http @sjuvonen @tinker

Also, your statement of "we al have electricity and we all profit from cheap food" is not true in almost the entire planet and in around 30% of USA I think, but let's leave that aside for the moment being.

http :verified: replied to Remença

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker If you look at the industrialization, this helped everyone worldwide and extreme poverty levels have sunken to historic lows. So yes, this indeed helped everyone.

Remença replied to http

@http @sjuvonen @tinker

No, this is not true. When industrialization is paired with capitalism it results in that the capitalist take over everything and the rest get poorer.

sciencedirect.com/science/arti

http :verified: replied to Remença

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker The charts on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ shows what I meant. Your article (colonialism, capitalism) might be true, but is a different topic. Yes, when everyone is a farmer and can care for theirselves, there is almost no extreme poverty. Too off-topic to discuss further though.

Remença replied to http

@http @sjuvonen @tinker

I fail to convey my point. What I say is that what problem there is with artists and other intellectual workers losing their jobs and joining the ranks of the manual workers? Is manual work lesser than intellectual work?

Iron Bug replied to Remença
@tinker @sjuvonen @remenca this will never happen. never. because human brain works totally different than computational algorithms. and we still have too little knowledge about how brain works.
that that they call "AI" now is nothing like "intelligence". it's just statistical maths with databases, nothing more. no magic, no intellect. stupid algorithms. poor and useless results that cannot be used in business or whatever because this is not intelligence. this is just stochastic subsets of junk datasets. and some people believe this is "intelligence". it's not. nothing reliable, nothing recurrent, nothing reproducible, this is not knowledge, it's just random junk.
and the bubble will burst, at last. major investors have already got this and stopped financing that hoax.
@tinker @sjuvonen @remenca this will never happen. never. because human brain works totally different than computational algorithms. and we still have too little knowledge about how brain works.
that that they call "AI" now is nothing like "intelligence". it's just statistical maths with databases, nothing more. no magic, no intellect. stupid algorithms. poor and useless results that cannot be used in business or whatever because this is not intelligence....
Mx Verda replied to Remença

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker because that isn’t a plan, it’s an end-goal or ideal outcome.

Remença replied to Mx

@MxVerda @sjuvonen @tinker

It is a solution, which is what was asked. Another entire matter is how we get there, but even that I think that if we were only able to move to a less predatory capitalism like the one of the 60's if would be probably sufficient.

Mx Verda replied to Remença

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker
“how do I improve my life?” “Escape poverty.”
“Uh, ok, how do I do that?” “Get more money.”

We remove the rich people, by moving to a less predatory capitalism. Alright.
How do we move to a less predatory capitalism? It might seem like I’m being pedantic, but people need clear, distinct tasks before they can track progress towards a goal.

I don’t need micromanaging bs about 2:43 pm next Thursday, but “big goal” from “chunks of that goal” from “portioned out segments of those chunks” go a long way towards engaging people with making it happen. Even destructive criticism is still helpful as it at least highlights a problem (badly) in how others will perceive it.

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker
“how do I improve my life?” “Escape poverty.”
“Uh, ok, how do I do that?” “Get more money.”

We remove the rich people, by moving to a less predatory capitalism. Alright.
How do we move to a less predatory capitalism? It might seem like I’m being pedantic, but people need clear, distinct tasks before they can track progress towards a goal.

Remença replied to Mx

@MxVerda @sjuvonen @tinker

I think that your demands of greater clarity are fair, but replacing capitalism with something else is something very complicated, so my answer will be unavoidably incomplete and flawed.

Removing the rich people is something that has been attempted in the past and in many occasions succeeded. The secret I'd say is to have at least part of the military in your side. 1917 revolution, Paris commune, Burkina Faso, etc...all share this trait.

Remença replied to Remença

@MxVerda @sjuvonen @tinker

The tricky part seems to be twofold. First you need to avoid other powers that are friendly to the rich you have removed that will try do destroy you. This has also happened in failed revolutions like in Germany, Spain or the rest of the springtime of peoples. We could even consider the Napoleonic wars against the French revolution an instance of this. The only solution I see to this is again having the support of the military.

Remença replied to Remença

@MxVerda @sjuvonen @tinker

Finally, if you have not been destroyed by your capitalist enemies, the only problem is how to avoid becoming a capitalist yourself after you gain power. This is what in my understanding led to the USSR demise with the apparition of the Nomenklatura or the capitalist "communism" from China. Still, it can be argued that at least those systems ended being softer versions of capitalism that the ones that replaced, so it was not all in vain, but still.

Remença replied to Remença

@MxVerda @sjuvonen @tinker

Applying this to the current situation I think that a more or less clear picture arises. The military is split in two parts, one is the military industrial complex and the other is the cannon fodder that are extremely brainwashed with maga stuff in the bottom. Some years ago the brainwashing worked because USA was the most advanced country, but this seems to be ending due to the climate change, resource depletion and the apparition of emerging powers like the brics.

Remença replied to Remença

@MxVerda @sjuvonen @tinker

So far they have managed to keep the cannon fodder fooled by blaming minorities and woke people for everything. But this will not work forever, simply because the real causes of the American decline are not those, and they will run out of minorities to blame. What will happen when this happens and the bottom military realize they have been tricked? I don't know, but it could open an opportunity like the Kornilov affair where the military change sides.

Remença replied to Remença

@MxVerda @sjuvonen @tinker

So in my opinion, considering how powerful the propaganda machine is, the only thing we can do is just wait until the whole thing comes breaking down. And try to educate all the maga bigots - especially the ones in the army - until they realize they are just poor proletariat like us. Other than that I don't know.

It is said Lenin once said that any society is only two missed meals from revolution. We are getting there.

Mx Verda replied to Remença

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker I will say that as a military brat, I think you’re vastly underestimating the massive contingent of nerds and other people who are / could be aware but need health insurance etc. Can’t evaluate the other stuff though

Remença replied to Mx

@MxVerda @sjuvonen @tinker

I have to say that as catalan living in Spain, where we have a public system that is in shambles compared to 20 years ago, I am always surprised at the situation in USA. The declining life expectancy, the bloated hospital bills, the whole mess with COVID and the masks. It is outlandish. You have my sympathy and support.

DMTea

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker I guess since I exist in this system I didn’t ask for, and made the best of it, it means I can’t suggest that we use a better system? Or point out the incredible problems in this one?

Thanks I’m cured!

Remença

@DMTea @sjuvonen @tinker
I'm sorry mate, but English is not my first language and I'm afraid I expressed myself poorly. What I meant is that the reluctance of admitting my point expressed in his "oh, that's simple" is probably due to a conflict of interest with his current status. Anyway, he expressed that this is not the case, so that's it.

Dragon-sided D

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker If capitalism itself was the problem I would expect better outcomes in Algeria, Eritrea, the LPDR, and North Korea

persistentdreamergames

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker

So ... Interesting point, but I think it's not entirely accurate. I would say the problem is human greed, which uses capitalism as a vehicle. As long as there's people that are ambitious and wanting to be powerful, those people will use whatever systemic tools available to get it. Socialism helps, but if greedy people get into the leadership and corrupt it, they can still use those systems to make themselves powerful. It does make it harder for them though.
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persistentdreamergames

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker

The problem with AI is that while the technology is not necessarily evil, it's more easily used by the powerful. What makes this technology so scary for me is that Sam Altmans of the world are leveraging this tech now.

When you talk about not working, I see myself in a system that only rewards me with survival for working while providing no actual opportunity to do so, which is terrifying.

persistentdreamergames

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker

It's terrible because what should be a liberating tool as you frame it is in reality being weaponized against the regular Joe. Joe calls in to xyz corporation to complain about terrible product x, and AI plays the gatekeeper, screens joe from getting to a person, meanwhile CEO boss Steve saves money by doing the bigger dick move, and the environment burns as icing on the cake.

persistentdreamergames

@remenca @sjuvonen @tinker

The potential for a Star Trek future is there, that's certainly not what we're dealing with now, and I have serious doubts we'll be around long enough to see what the world looks like once the tech matures.

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