 FuckFuckNo. 🤦♀️ I just want a search engine that works. I have zero need for a godawful "AI" hallucinating mansplainer in my results. Just… no. Time to move off of DDG. What else is out there? Edit: yes, it seems to be for real: 156 comments
@rysiek I use @Mojeek but sadly some results for me are bit underwhelming, then I switch to qwant which I find ok but they did have some sketchy things going on from what I remember (misinformation, remembered wrong, they only had partnerships from Microsoft and Huawei which are eh but def not rly super sketchy bad thing).   1. Yes I know that. @cyrus I figured you'd know, but I'm seeing the root of this thread getting boosted a lot, and people are clearly looking for options, so I thought it was worth making it clear. I also think that since it's a feature request, it would help if people pushed back on it. This particular feature request would just add it as one more optional engine among a large number, which can be disabled in the config or by the user, so I'm not terribly worried about it.   @rail_ Qwant is not feeling well currently https://kolektiva.social/@olgamatna/112217418110948948  @wojciech_space @rail_ @rysiek Can't currently replicate this with uBlock Origin and Privacy Badger active.  @voltar13 @rail_ @rysiek That said... their results are often best even vs DDG, and the Anonymous View function is handy. I noticed ad links with uBO off, but otherwise nothing nasty. @rysiek @Mojeek is often my go-to, but many people dislike it due to how different the search results are. You may be interested in aggregating results using SearxNG, maybe? https://searx.space   @rysiek they have been using language models to replace the result pages’ titles and summary for a long time already (i think even google didn’t do that?). i switched to startpage at some point because i was fed up with its bullshit, but then it forces me to do captcha every now and then :neocat_baa: @rysiek Is that confirmed ? I can't see it anywhere on the website, is that only on smartphones or something ? I'd hate to have to find a replacement now, but if they start encouraging that shit, I'm leaving right away.
 @rysiek KAGI might be useful. See @jasonkoebler 's recent review: https://mastodon.social/@jasonkoebler/112207606932971467  @cumulonimbus @rysiek @jasonkoebler unfortunately, #Kagi also drank the AI KoolAid: @eliasp @rysiek @jasonkoebler that's a separate feature, not integrated into the search, as far as I know.  @eliasp @cumulonimbus @rysiek @jasonkoebler They have; though I’ve yet to see it in actual Kagi search results. (I’ve not got an issue with people experimenting with AI, as long as it’s avoidable) @james @eliasp @cumulonimbus @rysiek @jasonkoebler @cumulonimbus Kagi had the Brave kerfuffle: Kagi's main developer's responses in the thread were… underwhelming to say the least. @rysiek@mstdn.social SearX(NG) is good enough (i mostly use the instance hosted by disroot)  @Decentralize wait, who's partnered with Leo from Brave? And who's "Leo from Brave"? @rysiek leo is the Ai of Brave Brower, and someone earlier posted they partnered with duckduckgo. So it's not confirmed, but everything Ai doesn't need to be on my browser anyway @pa27 well it seems that there is some LLM shenanigans going on in the search results as well:  @pa27 You may joke, but I've been using pretty much only books for my writing research, because finding the same information online hasn't worked out well at all. The information is either not there, or buried in too much trash, and this was the case even before AI. The idea of using search engines for *factual answers* is wild to me. Yet the sort of things they'd be best for finding - personal sites, blogs, art, etc - are also the things they really don't like to show people.  Still early days, but I'm liking #Stract ... a new stand-alone search engine being developed by one person and (last I heard) run on a server in his basement. #404Media also just published an article extolling a paid SE called #Kagi ... not sure I'm "there" yet (paying for search), but it sounds promising. Oh yeah ... https://stract.com/ Hmm ... actually, even better, start here ... https://stract.com/about @ErictheCerise I actually want to pay for search, as that's the only way the incentives align correctly for the search provider in this late stage capitalist dystopia, but Kagi had their… Brave moment and also implement AI crap: This does actually make sense. I've been paying for email service for decades, don't know why search should be different.  @ErictheCerise@kolektiva.social @rysiek@mstdn.social  @rysiek: we are doing our search engine with our independent index (v2 aka Big Update is WIP) - svmetasearch.eu.org, but if I would recommend something out of my comfort zone I would go with searxng.nove.team SearXNG instance.
Edit: corrected the domain  @rysiek I love your description of 'AI' as a hallucinating mansplainer! Perfect :D . @dusepo can't claim credit for that, sadly. Been floating around the Zeitgeist for a while. :blobcatcoffee:  @rysiek How do you know it will be a "hallucinating mansplainer in my results" ? Why do you think it will? Jumping to conclusions and then getting angry at those conclusions is not a very good way to get through life.... @berkes I'm doing fine with going through life, thanks. And anything that touches ChatGPT or any other LLM in the context of a search product to me is super sus. There's ample evidence of LLM chatbots providing completely made up results. I am not going to wait until DDG decides it's "good enough" and integrates it more into their stuff.  @rysiek  @rysiek @Shobeck it's a huge red flag to me and I am not waiting to see where it leads if I can avoid it. @MotionToExtendDebate it's a huge red flag that they even consider implementing stuff like that.  @rysiek Why not continue to use DDG but simply don't use the optional experimental functionality there? This would give them valuable feedback for what percentage of their user base is interested in this technology. From what I can see it's optional and an experiment, nothing they force on everyone? @djh the fact that they even consider investing time and effort into this is a huge red flag for me. I am not going to wait until that red flag materializes as something even worse.  @rysiek I don’t think people realise DuckDuckGo is a Microsoft Bing operation skinned as privacy. It’s why they accidentally filtered terms critical of China at the same time as Bing did. I wouldn’t use it. @GossiTheDog @rysiek What do you use instead? I’ve been using DDG for years and looking for something new now. @GossiTheDog yeah, I'm aware. I would much prefer a search engine with decent results that is supported by paying customers.  @ornaled @rysiek @GossiTheDog I’d pay good money for a “simple” indexing and quality rating search engine without any other for-profit or content/people farming incentives. You should check out Kagi. $10 a month for unlimited search. Now, they do have FastGPT and universal summarizer which are LLM based tools but FastGPT provides links from the search as its sources and you do not have to use it. Otherwise it frankly feels as good as a google search. Also supports bangs and custom “lens” which are scoped searches limited to specific sites, like programming documentation. You can also rank results so you can pin good ones and lower bad ones. @archliberal Kagi has AI crap as well, plus there's the Brave thing.  @rysiek @archliberal @GossiTheDog Their "AI crap" is just a summary assistant that doesn't automatically activate unless you end your query with a '?'. And they're only using Brave's API to pull some search results from them to supplement results from Google, Bing, and their own index. @rysiek I use Kagi, it's paid (so no ads or user tracking needed). It has optional AI, but it's based on sources (and it will mention those, like Wikipedia does). @thomastospace DDG's "AI" thing is also optional. So if OP wants to stop using DDG because of it, why would they want to move to Kagi, which also has "AI" integration? xP I tried Kagi a while back and was considering getting a subscription even though the search results were no better for my needs than DDG's, but then they announced their summariser and I stuck with DDG. Guess that didn't last long 🤣  I feel the question of "what else is there" depends on what you're actually looking for. If you're just looking to use a large index while minimizing the data you're sending back, then DuckDuckGo still works for that. DuckDuckGo and Qwant use Bing's index, while Startpage uses Google's index, and any of those would work for that purpose. If you're looking for a independent index for general use, Mojeek probably has the largest index that is not Google, Bing, or Yandex. @rysiek goddammit, just when their results started being decent enough for me to not use !g or !s as a crutch! JUST LET ME FIND THINGS FFS   @rysiek FWIW, Kagi has a well-developed and nuanced take on AI, it's not just "Integrate All The Things!" The Brave thing is still concerning as hell, and AI in general is harmful, but Kagi seems to be more thoughtful than most as far as I can tell. (I'm just a paying customer for Kagi, no other connections)  @tayfonay@beige.party @rysiek@mstdn.social #DuckDuckGo is already pretty useless without boolean search options, and it also ignores dates. So if you're trying to search for something from 2014, you can't. Nor can you exclude all the stupid amazon or pinterest posts, etc. It's useless junk. And now it's useless junk with a heaping pike of garbage on top. @shekinahcancook @rysiek the lack of exclusion options shocked me. How does anyone find DDG useful without the option to filter stuff out?    @rysiek Noo I have trusted DuckDuckGo duck, now they have betrayed my trust. :ohno: @rysiek fortunately it looks like it's only in the DuckDuckGo browser. So if you're just using DDG in Firefox or something, it's not an immediate problem. Edit: Other people are reporting that they're also having it advertised to them in mainstream browsers, so guessing there's some limited trialling going on as well? @rysiek @trechnex That would indeed be enough not to trust them anymore but it's there on the website from Icecat/Firefox too (see previous posts).
#FuckFuckNo   @rysiek I use Ecosia.org and it seems to have the same thing. Given that both of them use Bing as a back end, at least to some degree, I imagine this is a M$ pushed decision that they have to use. Not a fan, especially for Ecosia, who's whole mission is environmentalism. Very disingenuous. @rysiek I'd be down and like it a lot if they used an open-source uncensored AI for t5his, not the MS's garbage. Well, we'll wait and see how they're gonna deal with the backlash from the community  @rysiek Recently I started using Ecosia, and it's not bad :) For Google like search results, I'll use Startpage. And for result not coming from big-tech, I like to use Brave search.  @rysiek if they'd just called it a search "summary" no-one would have worried ;-)   @rysiek Kagi has been good. They do have some AI addons but nothing that I’ve ever interacted with or been annoyed by.  @rysiek their search results were starting to look more and more like google. Last couple of months the results were lousy and commercial. This explains it. @rysiek always vpn to your own host running all your happy tools. One being SearXNG. https://github.com/searxng/searxng Goes in a docker easily. It’s nice having a multi engine that cleans and sanitizes along the way.  @rysiek it's entirely within their raison d'etre to offer privacy preserving access to services they don't have themselves. Think of this as a VPN for AI access. I've used other search engines that did this for images and maps, at least as an alternative. If they do it then it avoids you being tempted to access them without privacy protections.    @rysiek I do not want AI, I do not want cookies, I do not want vendors buying my searches and webpage visits.   @rysiek I use DDG at home, and realised that I haven't seen some of the odd stuff that so many others have commented on. Because I don't use Google. I want it to stay that way. Work does use Ecosia, which is better than Google too. But I know they have some issues as well. If I want an AI answer, I will use an AI. If I want a web search, I want to use a web searcher. If there are none that will do that job, then the web is unusable. |
Gregory's Server
@rysiek what the fuck