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@carolannie @graywolf @yogthos @jimray EU is very much a capitalistic society. Just one with stronger social safety nets than USA.  @yogthos @Janne_O @carolannie @jimray too bad we can only think to lessen social spending whenever there's a little budget crisis but never raise the taxes on the very wealthy 🙃 @Janne_O @graywolf @yogthos @jimray The EU is much more socialistic than the US, with a much more constrained capitalism. So the choice isn't capitalism vs "communism a la Pol Pot". It easily could be between pretty unconstrained capitalism such as we experience in the US or constrained and regulated capitalism with a good social structure. The note about Russian threats isn't relevant to this @carolannie @graywolf @yogthos @jimray I’m in Europe, Finland to be exact. And what you are calling socialism is just capitalism with social services. Private business is still very much the cornerstone of the economy and society as a whole.  @Janne_O @carolannie @graywolf @yogthos @jimray Pretty big strikes at the moment right? And a right-wing government that doesn't like that 😈 @Janne_O @carolannie @graywolf @yogthos @jimray This! @carolannie @Janne_O @graywolf @yogthos @jimray Europe has often been more aggressively capitalist than the US. For instance, they extended copyright before we did. @DecaturNature @Janne_O @graywolf @yogthos @jimray ? this is about social policy writ large, not minutiae  @carolannie the EU doesn't have socialism, they at best have social safety nets with a capitalism economy. Workers don't collectively own their work places, people aren't guaranteed home ownership, food still has to be bought by selling ones labor to someone else. Many EU countries have health care for everyone but that alone doesn't make it socialist.  The examples of communism-inspired evil totalitarian deeds are not difficult to come by, but there are some very important counter-examples as well. 1) The decolonization of Africa was made possible by communist support, 2) Cuba has historically and continues today to make available large quantities of medical professionals for poor countries, 3) the communist movements were hard-hitting pioneers in the struggle against overt western racism I think more generally though, with the collapse of properly communistic projects (China certainly isn't one), what the world today has lost is an alternative and stark comparison with which to challenge states to curtail the worst of capitalist's tendencies. The collapse of communist projects ushered in a new era where inequality has dramatically risen in western societies and social progress in education, health, and overall well-being has been slow and lagging. @iwein @graywolf @yogthos @jimray No, the idealists didn't get the world they imagined - but I'd contend that has a lot to do with the fact their theories didn't account for how those in power could be just as greedy for control as capitalists are greedy for money. Human nature remains the problem, same as it ever was. @StryderNotavi @graywolf @yogthos @jimray I don't disagree with that. Also my guess is that the failure of communism was even more intentional than that. I don't want to peddle conspiracy theories but here's my reasoning anyway. The ideal of non-violent anarcho-communism is an existential threat to greedy and power hungry oligarchs. The Machiavellian response that is still playing out is too well orchestrated for me to readily believe that it's just an emergent property of human nature. @graywolf @yogthos @jimray Of course, neoliberal brutal capitalism and totalitarian brutal communism are not the only options available. Capitalism is much more regulated in Europe than in the US. And there are much more socialist countries within Europe, like the Scandinavian ones. Of course, according to the neoliberal theorists, it must collapse in the next year, five years at most. They have been saying that for decades.   @graywolf state capitalists sometimes called red fascists are not communist despite what they want to call themselves. Communism even according to Marx(whose theories they claim to follow) is a classless, stateless, and moneyless society. Not a single one of those things are true in any country that calls itself communist, they do however have a rich ruling class, a state run by that rich ruling class, and market economy owned by the ruling class. ie state capitalism. @graywolf @yogthos @jimray But no, Stalin (which is whom it's usually about) was probably not 'worse than Hitler'  If you want to discuss political philosophy and history, do it in good faith 5,000-12,000 deaths is not “more blood on their hands than even Hitler” http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm#Cuba59 Communism doesn’t mean just the bolsheviks, and Stalin’s totalitarian regime wasn’t even “worse than Hitler” either 🤷🏼 @srchadfield @yogthos @graywolf @jimray |
@yogthos @jimray I am not really enthusiastic about what the current capitalism looks like, but if the alternative is communism, regime with more blood on their hands than even Hitler, I am not sure I would prefer it. Is there a third option?