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Hector Martin

Soooo my previous toots ended up on Phoronix and here come the entitled users saying how dare you tell me to switch to Wayland.

Repeat after me: Xorg is dead. It is unmaintained. It is buggy and those bugs are not getting fixed. *THIS IS FROM ITS OWN DEVELOPERS*. The people previously working on Xorg are now working on Wayland. They are literally part of the same organization FFS.

If you want Xorg to keep working, fix it yourself. Oh, not interested? Nobody else is either. Guess what, if nobody works on it, it will bitrot into oblivion. Nobody has signed up to fix it. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change that. You can keep using it all you like, but unless YOU sign up to maintain it, it's going to die.

Want Xorg to survive? Take over maintenance. We're all waiting.

*crickets*

13 May 2023 at 14:19 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
78 comments
Hector Martin

Seriously, it's like you all think just shouting "I will never leave Xorg and my X11-only software" is going to magically save it from withering away and dying.

Sign up to do the work yourselves or deal with it. If so many people love Xorg so much, why is literally *nobody* signing up to save it? It's not going to save itself no much how much you comment on Phoronix.

13 May 2023 at 14:22 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
Troed Sångberg

@marcan ah the age old argument between the talkers and the doers

doers. always. win.

<3

13 May 2023 at 14:24 | Open on ioc.exchange
lonjil

@marcan I don't think I've ever seen a comment on Phoronix worth reading.

Personally I would love to leave X behind, but every time I try on my PC, my Wayland experience buggier than what I get with X. I did switch on my laptop though, despite having to give up real fractional scaling to do it.

13 May 2023 at 14:29 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
barrett 🌹
Jo Shields

@lonjil @marcan there are no comments worth reading on Phoronix.

The forum is unmoderated, so ends up how you'd expect an unmoderated forum to end up.

13 May 2023 at 14:52 | Open on tech.lgbt
the vessel of morganna

@directhex @lonjil @marcan I read the phoronix comments just to get a laugh from the inane takes and incredible zealotry

13 May 2023 at 18:05 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
Jo Shields

@astraleureka @lonjil @marcan sadly sites like phoronix are surprisingly influential. The opinions shared on there by extremists leak and permeate the user Base

13 May 2023 at 18:21 | Open on tech.lgbt
J3RN :fedora: :elixir: :emacs:

@lonjil @marcan Same situation here with respect to X/Wayland. I'm 99% sure it's the fault of NVidia's drivers.

13 May 2023 at 14:59 | Open on fosstodon.org
lonjil

@j3rn I'm on AMD, but I've noticed the drivers steadily getting worse over the last couple of years, unfortunately.

13 May 2023 at 15:01 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
Sander van Kasteel

@j3rn as an ex-nvidia user, definitely! Wayland with Nvidia is buggy as frick :/

13 May 2023 at 15:19 | Open on mastodon.online
[HUGS] getimiskon :OwOid: :blobcatgooglywtf: :verified_neko:
@marcan it's sad to know an important piece of software like Xorg is being unmaintained. I get that the devs decided to work on Wayland. That's good. But I don't think a lot of users of Linux (and other BSD-based systems) are ready to switch yet, because the developers haven't supported it yet or they don't have enough developers for it. In my opinion, those who say "I will never leave Xorg" are just contrarians, and we're full of those.
13 May 2023 at 14:47 | Open on fedi.getimiskon.xyz
DeviantXS

@marcan the average comments on Phoronix feel like your average gamer comments.

They complain if it isn’t fully FOSS, shame anyone who dares to question anything they like, and have the ignorance of “works on my machine so idk :)”.

One of the comments that was posted in the article literally made me laugh.

“Can we just ditch Apple HW since they don't want to support Linux development at all? This world consists of every kind of things, do not force everyone to use Mac.”

Who the hell is forcing you to use Mac? What reality distortion field are you simulating? If you hate such a computer and call yourself a FOSS supporter, you’re missing the point.

The only point of FOSS is to collaborate, help each other, and grow together. Can’t fix it? Donate, report bugs, send statistics, suggestions, etc.

If you want to ditch Mac hardware or any kind of hardware, you’re making it harder for anyone to try to use Linux, or even dare to learn using it. If you’re starting to reach the point of making your own GPU fan curve because the foss drivers are broken to oblivion, perhaps its time to submit a fix instead of feeling proud of creating such a hacky script solution.

Just saying… looking at you Hawaiian Islands. Thermally shutting down… first degree… allegedly… you’re probably installing it wrong… just use ubun-(ears begin to ring and begins to collapse to the floor)

@marcan the average comments on Phoronix feel like your average gamer comments.

They complain if it isn’t fully FOSS, shame anyone who dares to question anything they like, and have the ignorance of “works on my machine so idk :)”.

One of the comments that was posted in the article literally made me laugh.

13 May 2023 at 14:53 | Open on pony.social
Jamey Sharp

@marcan I worked on X for a number of years: I wrote XCB, and in one X server release I authored more commits than anyone else. And… you're right that people need to move on. I'm confused about why that would be controversial.

13 May 2023 at 15:00 | Open on toot.cat
Kensan

@jamey @marcan Is it partly because people get attached to “the way things work”? It’s usually hard to break a habit so I can understand reluctance to move to something else. However, in software, I have the impression that people feel personally attacked if something they use/like gets criticized…

13 May 2023 at 15:05 | Open on mastodon.social
Jamey Sharp

@Kensan @marcan As I said, I'm confused about why this is controversial—your guess may be better than mine. 😅 As usual though, there's an XKCD with one possible answer: xkcd.com/1172/

13 May 2023 at 15:12 | Open on toot.cat
Kensan

@jamey @marcan hah, yes that’s spot on 😆

Somehow with open source there comes a lot of entitlement and strong opinions… one of the good things is, that one can put in the work to back up these opinions.

What’s clear to me in this scenario is that Asahi/ @marcan are putting in so much work improving the whole ecosystem by chasing down obscure issues down to the compiler. I would think that would afford the project/him some more credibility when weighing in on issues like Xorg etc…

13 May 2023 at 15:28 | Open on mastodon.social
mirabilos

@jamey @marcan @Kensan experience in one thing doesn’t mean experience in another thing (the field is HUGE), although he probably has that, nor does it mean recognising what’s important about Unix (which he’s truly lacking, permitting only the subset of poettering’d users’ needs)

13 May 2023 at 15:56 | Open on toot.mirbsd.org
Josh Triplett
I think people have some notion that if they complain hard enough or throw up enough roadblocks, the thing they prefer will magically start getting maintained. It's the same notion that arises around architecture archaeology, init intransigence, OS ossification, and other dead-end development.

Closely related: most Open Source projects let obscure use cases get some free maintenance, both because we have sympathy for such cases and because they're *usually* not much trouble. People get used to the free maintenance. So, when a project comes along that says "no, that's not supported" because something *isn't* trivial to support, people get angry.
I think people have some notion that if they complain hard enough or throw up enough roadblocks, the thing they prefer will magically start getting maintained. It's the same notion that arises around architecture archaeology, init intransigence, OS ossification, and other dead-end development.
13 May 2023 at 18:37 | Open on social.joshtriplett.org
James Tucker

@Kensan @jamey @marcan there are non-contributor users (people who can’t or haven’t read any of the associate code) who have direct or indirect experience with wayland not working for them. They are not considering the trajectory of the ecosystem, but just drawing from that experience with fear and doubt that wayland will work for them. All the new subsystems suffer this :-( sorry it’s all front an center and rude in your feeds all the time

13 May 2023 at 19:46 | Open on don.rag.pub
James Tucker

@Kensan @jamey @marcan youtu.be/FKgD65Um8Mo this video, and top comment are perfect examples of things driving the mass thinking from those without deeper background

13 May 2023 at 19:49 | Open on don.rag.pub
Oblomov

@jamey @marcan
because people don't care about how complex and difficult to maintain something is, what they care about is stuff working, and possibly in the way they expect and/or are used to. If the Wayland space wasn't dominated by a group of opinionated uncooperative “my way or the highway” know-it-alls the situation might have been different, but such is life.

13 May 2023 at 15:52 | Open on sociale.network
mirabilos

@jamey @marcan simple non-DE WMs, using X as xterm multiplexer, over the network, mixing sparc and x86 windows, the much better tooling for e.g. xmodmap, xcompose, etc. and the fact that XFree86 works with just 64 MiB RAM and doesn’t need a 3D graphics card, is well-established so huge portability and program availability, and that’s just what’s on top of my head

13 May 2023 at 16:00 | Open on toot.mirbsd.org
mort

@jamey It may be controversial because there are *real* issues which won't be fixed, such as global hotkeys being intentionally broken, and (at least until libdecoration improves) native-looking decorations requiring GTK thanks to GNOME's lack of SSDs.

I use Wayland myself and the intentionally missing features are worth it for me, but people understandably get upset when you take away very important features and tell people to suck it.

13 May 2023 at 18:19 | Open on fosstodon.org
Diego Elio Pettenò
Peter Bindels

@marcan The people saying "I will never leave Xorg and my X11-only software" will end up in the same place as PPC Mac users and Amiga users. Just ignore them and let them do whatever they think they want to do.

13 May 2023 at 15:01 | Open on mastodon.social
Hector Martin

@dascandy42 Hey I have a PPC Mac Mini lying around! I should do something with it...

13 May 2023 at 15:02 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
Peter Bindels

@marcan Have you tried olympic discus throwing?

Removing the cooling and using it as a firestarter by holding down the spacebar?

Use as blocks to keep a car from rolling away?

I mean, they have so many uses still...

13 May 2023 at 15:26 | Open on mastodon.social
falktx

@marcan this could easily be said about many software projects.
some folks wants stuff to work nice and stable, but do not want to put in the work themselves to help make it so.

with how many developers there are out there, it is a bit sad that so few (sometimes none) volunteer to take care of base infrastructure.

perhaps the result of a systemic problem.
X11/Wayland just being one of critical pieces involved. the same story to be repeated soon with other critical system libraries.

@marcan this could easily be said about many software projects.
some folks wants stuff to work nice and stable, but do not want to put in the work themselves to help make it so.

with how many developers there are out there, it is a bit sad that so few (sometimes none) volunteer to take care of base infrastructure.

13 May 2023 at 16:57 | Open on mastodon.falktx.com
Hector Martin

@falktx People *have* volunteered, then burned out. Xorg is just that fundamentally broken and unfixable. At some point we just have to accept its fate.

13 May 2023 at 17:11 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
Thomas Depierre

@falktx @marcan also want to point out that considering that it is sad that *noone volunteered* is kinda the problem here. Since when volunteering to be hurt to help others with no support and nothing to get in return, what do you expect?

Why should developers out there "take care" of something that it seems no one really want?
Why are the users that want it so much not taking care of said devs? isn't *that* a bit sad?

13 May 2023 at 17:39 | Open on hachyderm.io
Thomas Depierre

@falktx @marcan If anything, we should be happy that no one *volunteered*. It is the fact that people volunteered for so long to maintain something we knew would hurt them that should be sad.

13 May 2023 at 17:40 | Open on hachyderm.io
falktx

@Di4na @marcan I am glad they did, and hope we get to keep X11 things working for a while, because we are still in a transition period.

It is nice to want things to move along, but we need to provide a path for that to happen that doesn't involve having to deal with broken things.

Users are complaining for a reason, for as much as devs have been saying to "move to wayland!", they cannot do that when the tools they rely on do not work.

13 May 2023 at 18:42 | Open on mastodon.falktx.com
Bálint Szilakszi

@marcan this entitled attitude from people who depend on open source maintainers made me stop maintaining/contributing years ago

13 May 2023 at 14:24 | Open on x0r.be
Cysio :verified_gay:​

@marcan my system has issues with Wayland but I might just leave desktop Linux altogether (or buy a MacBook and load Asahi on it)

13 May 2023 at 14:24 | Open on mastodon.cysioland.pl
Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
@marcan And I guess in the ones that would initially sign up, they'll end up learning about broken Xorg really is and so adopt Wayland.
13 May 2023 at 14:25 | Open on queer.hacktivis.me
💉💉💉💉 Sean Houlihane 🕷️🔶

@marcan I'm no expert, but I'm under the impression that X11 has been broken for as long as I've been using it. Not that I can remember when that was.

13 May 2023 at 14:29 | Open on mastodon.ie
TSource Engine Query
@marcan should not forget that Micheal Larabel is also a journalist.
13 May 2023 at 14:31 | Open on suya.place
Michael Robinson

@marcan On the plus side, I had no idea about all this since I haven't followed Linux closely in years, so I learned something.

13 May 2023 at 14:34 | Open on infosec.exchange
archiloque
Riesi

@marcan Also if so many want their Xorg features working in the future.
Why dont they do the more sustainable thing of helping to improve Wayland.

I know there are many dumb Xorg things that will never make it to Wayland, but there are probably a lot of UX related features that can. Someone just has to kick off the discussion.

13 May 2023 at 14:51 | Open on mastodon.gamedev.place
Hector Martin

@riesi Even just prodding people is surprisingly effective sometimes. Like I found out natural scrolling was making volume sliders go backwards. Turned out there was a Wayland protocol proposal for this stuck in limbo. Poked the relevant people and now it's merged!

gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland

13 May 2023 at 15:26 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
paulo
@marcan @riesi yep you just need to ask nicely
it's why it took wayland 13 years to get fractional scaling
and took gnome 19 years to get a preview on the file picker

people say it's the developers fault but it really isn't, just entitled users
13 May 2023 at 16:48 | Open on boks.moe
Gianmarco Gargiulo :tux: :kde:

@marcan the only way X lives nowadays is through Xenocara, the OpenBSD fork, which I guess is there to stay as I've heard Wayland kinda "hardcodes" some Linux stuff which makes it difficult to have Wayland on BSD systems. Correct me if I'm wrong.

13 May 2023 at 15:10 | Open on mastodon.uno
Sander van Kasteel

@gianmarcogg03 I can imagine that the Wayland devs probably hardcoded some parts of it to push development forward for the moment and probably plan to revisit those hardcoded parts on later time when things stabilize.

13 May 2023 at 15:17 | Open on mastodon.online
Gianmarco Gargiulo :tux: :kde:

@SuitedUpDev I hope so since I want other libre operating systems to move forward too, I don't want a future Linux monoculture or something like that.

13 May 2023 at 15:22 | Open on mastodon.uno
Hector Martin

@gianmarcogg03 Could be, yeah.

Sidenote, OpenBSD kind of ran into a major showstopper with Apple Silicon support because they are apparently not interested in supporting Rust in their kernel, and our GPU driver is written in Rust. Until then they were keeping up pretty nicely (and we have a good relationship with them and share code and developers), but unless someone over there adds Rust support or rewrites the entire GPU driver in C...

13 May 2023 at 15:20 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:
@gianmarcogg03 @marcan libinput and it's dependency on systemd-udev is the only one I'm aware of and that's a compositor dependency which could be replaced by another, either by a libinput shim or writing a new input module for compositors.

At least FreeBSD and NetBSD got wayland support (NetBSD one probably still being very WIP but the work is just few years old and doesn't have a lot of workforce).
@gianmarcogg03 @marcan libinput and it's dependency on systemd-udev is the only one I'm aware of and that's a compositor dependency which could be replaced by another, either by a libinput shim or writing a new input module for compositors.

13 May 2023 at 16:28 | Open on queer.hacktivis.me
gerwingle

@gianmarcogg03 @marcan Wayland is simply a protocol, it works on BSD. Xenocara doesn't fix anything of note with Xorg these days, still lacks GUI isolation, still has infinite security holes, still has screen tearing, and still is as buggy and old as ever

13 May 2023 at 17:17 | Open on mstdn.starnix.network
The Mïghty Kräcken

@marcan Having never heard any of those names, I am left unsure whether this is a real controversy or a cleverly manufactured satire.

No, I don't wish to be informed either way.

13 May 2023 at 15:27 | Open on mastodon.social
katkat
Nathan A. Stine

@marcan i do not want Xorg to survive. Wayland is the future. BTW, is XFree86 still around?

13 May 2023 at 15:48 | Open on mastodon.social
Dan Sugalski

@marcan people who are all “fix the thing for me, right now, for free” can fuck right off into the sun, tbh.

13 May 2023 at 15:58 | Open on weatherishappening.network
John Anderson

@marcan I can't make the switch without a working blue light filter. Maybe once I get an AMD card I'll have better luck...

13 May 2023 at 16:05 | Open on mastodon.online
DELETED

@marcan I used to have a custom version of X for my HTPC :ablobcateyeroll:​ thanks to you and everyone else moving things forward. Running fedora rawhide wayland here wondering what people are complaining about :)

13 May 2023 at 16:08 | Open on infosec.exchange
Florian 'floe' Echtler
the ketchup man
hapbt

@marcan I’ve been using Wayland for a couple years now with no Xorg and I can honestly say it’s finally here it’s solid enough for daily use, never going back

13 May 2023 at 16:57 | Open on epsilon.social
Ariadne Conill 🐰
kouhai, resolver of merges
Ariadne Conill 🐰
karolherbst 🐧 🦀

@ariadne @kouhai @marcan mhhh.. not sure. I mean there are some normal people, it's just the forum users which are a pain.

13 May 2023 at 17:56 | Open on chaos.social
karolherbst 🐧 🦀

@ariadne @kouhai @marcan mhhh, this thread really is a pure dumpster fire, oof. It's even worse than usual.

13 May 2023 at 18:07 | Open on chaos.social
flere-imsaho

@ariadne oh so it's not only me who calls the venerable news site so.

13 May 2023 at 19:08 | Open on circumstances.run
CEO of Anti-Clock Society

@marcan oh no toots are ending up on Phoronix now 😨

13 May 2023 at 18:18 | Open on floss.social
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