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Top-level
 Seriously, it's like you all think just shouting "I will never leave Xorg and my X11-only software" is going to magically save it from withering away and dying. Sign up to do the work yourselves or deal with it. If so many people love Xorg so much, why is literally *nobody* signing up to save it? It's not going to save itself no much how much you comment on Phoronix. 44 comments
@marcan I don't think I've ever seen a comment on Phoronix worth reading. Personally I would love to leave X behind, but every time I try on my PC, my Wayland experience buggier than what I get with X. I did switch on my laptop though, despite having to give up real fractional scaling to do it. @lonjil @marcan This works great for me: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/HiDPI#Wayland @directhex @lonjil @marcan I read the phoronix comments just to get a laugh from the inane takes and incredible zealotry @astraleureka @lonjil @marcan sadly sites like phoronix are surprisingly influential. The opinions shared on there by extremists leak and permeate the user Base    @marcan it's sad to know an important piece of software like Xorg is being unmaintained. I get that the devs decided to work on Wayland. That's good. But I don't think a lot of users of Linux (and other BSD-based systems) are ready to switch yet, because the developers haven't supported it yet or they don't have enough developers for it. In my opinion, those who say "I will never leave Xorg" are just contrarians, and we're full of those.
 @marcan I worked on X for a number of years: I wrote XCB, and in one X server release I authored more commits than anyone else. And⌠you're right that people need to move on. I'm confused about why that would be controversial. @jamey @marcan Is it partly because people get attached to âthe way things workâ? Itâs usually hard to break a habit so I can understand reluctance to move to something else. However, in software, I have the impression that people feel personally attacked if something they use/like gets criticized⌠@Kensan @marcan As I said, I'm confused about why this is controversialâyour guess may be better than mine. đ As usual though, there's an XKCD with one possible answer: https://xkcd.com/1172/ @jamey @marcan hah, yes thatâs spot on đ Somehow with open source there comes a lot of entitlement and strong opinions⌠one of the good things is, that one can put in the work to back up these opinions. Whatâs clear to me in this scenario is that Asahi/ @marcan are putting in so much work improving the whole ecosystem by chasing down obscure issues down to the compiler. I would think that would afford the project/him some more credibility when weighing in on issues like Xorg etc⌠ @Kensan @jamey @marcan there are non-contributor users (people who canât or havenât read any of the associate code) who have direct or indirect experience with wayland not working for them. They are not considering the trajectory of the ecosystem, but just drawing from that experience with fear and doubt that wayland will work for them. All the new subsystems suffer this :-( sorry itâs all front an center and rude in your feeds all the time @Kensan @jamey @marcan https://youtu.be/FKgD65Um8Mo this video, and top comment are perfect examples of things driving the mass thinking from those without deeper background  @jamey @marcan @jamey @marcan simple non-DE WMs, using X as xterm multiplexer, over the network, mixing sparc and x86 windows, the much better tooling for e.g. xmodmap, xcompose, etc. and the fact that XFree86 works with just 64 MiB RAM and doesnât need a 3D graphics card, is well-established so huge portability and program availability, and thatâs just whatâs on top of my head  @jamey It may be controversial because there are *real* issues which won't be fixed, such as global hotkeys being intentionally broken, and (at least until libdecoration improves) native-looking decorations requiring GTK thanks to GNOME's lack of SSDs. I use Wayland myself and the intentionally missing features are worth it for me, but people understandably get upset when you take away very important features and tell people to suck it. @mort @jamey there's also a portal now for global keyboard shortcuts: https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/#gdbus-org.freedesktop.portal.GlobalShortcuts Waiting for all the push-to-talk apps to support it, though @jokeyrhyme That's interesting. Is it (or will it be) supported in GNOME? Also, I really wish that portal stuff would separate itself from flatpak. It really isn't a good look to say that "flatpak portals" is the solution to all kinds of Wayland stuff that *should* be completely unrelated to flatpak. But that's neither here nor there. @mort GNOME doesn't advertise support for it yet: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/xdg-desktop-portal-gnome/-/blob/main/data/gnome.portal KDE does have it: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/blob/master/data/kde.portal wlroots doesn't have it: https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr/blob/master/wlr.portal @jokeyrhyme The reason I asked is, my impression is that a whole lot of Wayland people see global shortcuts ans an anti-feature which shouldn't be supported. Therefore, the existence of a DBus interface specification doesn't really matter; what matters is whether Wayland people have actually reversed their opinion or not. So what I'm interested in is really official communication about intent. @mort interesting well, I guess it's technically not _in_ wayland, and I can see why as there is a fair bit of UX that is better implemented at the portal/desktop level I filed some feature request issues, let's see what happens: @mort agreed regarding naming, it's a little awkward xdg-desktop-portal as a concept works even in X11 (although it's less necessary there), so it's not even a wayland-specific thing let along a flatpak-specific thing Although, I certainly don't mind credit going to the flatpak folks seeing as they took some initiative and started addressing these features   @endrift @marcan one never forgets their first death threats... https://flameeyes.blog/2006/10/23/my-personal-birthday-present/  @marcan The people saying "I will never leave Xorg and my X11-only software" will end up in the same place as PPC Mac users and Amiga users. Just ignore them and let them do whatever they think they want to do. @marcan Have you tried olympic discus throwing? Removing the cooling and using it as a firestarter by holding down the spacebar? Use as blocks to keep a car from rolling away? I mean, they have so many uses still... @falktx People *have* volunteered, then burned out. Xorg is just that fundamentally broken and unfixable. At some point we just have to accept its fate.  @falktx @marcan also want to point out that considering that it is sad that *noone volunteered* is kinda the problem here. Since when volunteering to be hurt to help others with no support and nothing to get in return, what do you expect? Why should developers out there "take care" of something that it seems no one really want? @Di4na @marcan I am glad they did, and hope we get to keep X11 things working for a while, because we are still in a transition period. It is nice to want things to move along, but we need to provide a path for that to happen that doesn't involve having to deal with broken things. Users are complaining for a reason, for as much as devs have been saying to "move to wayland!", they cannot do that when the tools they rely on do not work. |
Gregory's Server
@marcan ah the age old argument between the talkers and the doers
doers. always. win.
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