Gregory's ServerA warning: there's going to be a concerted effort to re-centralize the Fediverse.
As we've just seen with the acquisition of pawoo.net, that's already happening.
What are you going to do to thwart this trend?
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162 comments
 @gisiger Yes, that's one failsafe mechanism for the Fediverse. However, people need to care enough about de-centralization.  @atomicpoet @gisiger the general population doesn't care though and likely never will. the option with the biggest marketing budget will get the largest user base @atomicpoet @gisiger sure but having a brand and a message that will reach and resonate with the mass population will be very tricky for any decentralised, open source system @atomicpoet @gisiger no, not impossible. is there a fediverce foundation yet that could co-ordinate this part of the work?  @atomicpoet @mensrea But Mozilla takes money from Google, therefore it's a front for Google to take over the fediverse! (not my words, but I just read something along those lines here ...) @atomicpoet @gisiger i was thinking more of a group body for the fediverce writ large that can do co-ordinated marketing, advocacy, education, lobbying, ...  @mensrea @atomicpoet yes, that's why I'm happy of instances of big(ger) OS projects like Vivaldi or Mozilla. Yet many people don't like those and block them (happened already to Vivaldi) 🤷♀️ @atomicpoet Does it matter? If the underlying protocols are architected for federation and easy migration then any instances that go bad won't last long. @rob The instances that have gone bad have lasted for a very long time. Technology does not replace human moderation. @atomicpoet If the actions of the operators cause users any problems then they are two button presses away from migrating to another instance. The Musk problem couldn't arise here, provided acquirers don't do deeply evil things like defeating the migration mechanism. Someone *will* try it and the community response will define how the ecosystem eventually goes. @rob With all do respect, the Musk problem can not only happen on Mastodon, it has happened. You might want to look into a few more instances. @rob @atomicpoet They could easily disable the migration/export data button in their instance and literally lock people in? @rob @atomicpoet you're assuming that users are all aware of and invested in decentralization. Many Twitter migrators might even actively prefer a centralized model and be complicit. If that, or even just sheer ignorance from people seeking "the next thing," hits a critical mass, then no one will need to defeat the migration mechanism. It'll become irrelevant. @rob @atomicpoet That's a very naive stance. If you think bad things can't happen here, you probably wont be careful or vigilat and then they WILL happen. Those "two button presses" can just be disabled. The instance can do stuff to attract many users and then just change the protocol step by step. It's not the first time that would happen. And ignoring that threat won't just make it go away. Just saw this post and can assure that my post was a coincidence. But then again I do post about hating capitalism most days. @atomicpoet “What are you going to do to thwart this trend?”  @atomicpoet And btw, a lot of Japanese people that are aware of Pawoo or even use it don't even know it's a Mastodon server. @fenarinarsa @kaukamieli @atomicpoet espescially if you're offered cash for something that is becoming increasingly hard to maintain @atomicpoet So, last time I checked my server had approx. 40 Accounts. And I am more and more content with that fact. When I chose it, it was a random pick, because it was a regional server. Now I understand, that the size is just perfect for me 😄 @atomicpoet I run my own private instance. But admittedly, if someone gives me a ton of money for it, well... @atomicpoet The biggest issue with federation is trust. Unless smaller instances market themselves as trustworthy, barely any new users will pick them. Many small instance admin teams are anonymous random people. This doesn't help. The biggest instances benefit from "everyone I know has picked them, so can't be bad" and "too big to fail". We as users have no real way to influence the masses and as bad as it makes me feel saying it, we need ... "influencers" for that. @tobyx The way to fix this is to build a culture that values de-centralization. The notion of self-hosting and administrating your own instance should be normalized. We should embrace small. @atomicpoet As you've posted, big money is coming in, acquiring instances already. But I think there's also going to be smaller players, funded organizations with boards instead of anonymous admins that promise a culture that people can subscribe to. Made sustainable by people paying for a service—just a small amount. Just like with email where Gmail dominates, but it doesn't bother me too much. There's a healthy ecosystem for email out there for people who care and support smaller companies. @atomicpoet Oh and I think many people will stay far away from running their own instances because social media is such a controversial topic in many legislations. The legal ramifications are insane. @atomicpoet @tobyx we should find ways to monetize them like miners. Otherways they will eat us. There are no financial incentives to run own instance and now there is one - I potentially could be bouth by big fish. without some kind of money it's a voluntary lose deal. And why they should do it for free? Don't they deserve salary? Why they should work another job, aren't they instance valuable? Or we want them to work for some corporation and managing instance on work-free hours? @atomicpoet@mastodon.social Well … I don’t see how that would succeed. Even if all the large instances are bought and de-federated in an effort to centralise stuff, those of us here on our own instances would still be here as part of the fedi. No? I mean …. Who is going to want to pay me money for my calckey instance with just me on it and name like bkgrdclrschm.link?   @atomicpoet listen and learn! I have my own instance and the fediverse is one big learning curve. Once I'm sure of the best course I'll take action. It probably takes me a little longer than other folks. My brain can be a little slow. I very rarely see the instance on my timeline but understand this is no reason for complacency. I also run my own instances (with me as the only user) and I appreciate my freedom more and more for each day that passes. It took some time to get going before there was an interesting flow of content, and I was “unknown” I didn’t federate with anyone off the bat, but as the following/followers have reached a critical mass I doubt one would notice a difference compared to being on a hosted instance, except that “local” is only me. Everyone needs to be aware that Mask Group trades a crypto token. This same entity now owns pawoo.net, mstdn.jo, and mastodon.cloud. @atomicpoet they seem to have quite a few things going on around so-called Web 3.0:- https://we.mask.io/t/building-the-bridge-to-web3-0-introducing-the-mask-network-ecosystem-map/163 @atomicpoet what’s more, I’ve read that they’ve had close working relationship with the core Mastodon team and helped build their first official iOS app:- @atomicpoet Its frustrating that it’s a crypto entity, but “corporate” Mastodon instances are a positive signal IMO. @atomicpoet I'm just a regular user and this thread scared me a lot. As soon as I can find a job, I'll donate to my instance. It's been 7 weeks since I'm here, and I already don't want to go back to not having this community. @atomicpoet is re-centralising any different to some of the *giant* instances. I'm a big believer in it being a federation of planets, some will be bigger some will be smaller, and that works. It is definitely an interesting journey ahead however it pans out, but ultimately users have *choice* and that's a good thing. @jared M&A is a kind of recentralization. I certainly don't want one entity to be 90% of the Fediverse. @atomicpoet I'm not sure where I'd find the numbers but I'd say that geographically we see that with what I'd have to say is close to 90% of aussie users on aus.social and a large chunk of irish users on one instance too. There's a certain confidence organisations like mozilla can bring to running big instances and I thoroughly support that move (and agree with your earlier post points on how they could do better fediverse too!) @atomicpoet PS man.. please sit down for a chat with me sometime for this new podcast :) I'd love to talk your ideas for different future-fediverse things. You've had plenty of interesting to say since I started following you. @atomicpoet I'm in Aus/Sydney; but very flexible on times; I intend to drop episodes weekly on Wednesday nights my time. Would want a 30 minute slot; will DM you some starting questions I'd ask. Haven't decided if I keep wednesday nights to headlines and do the deep dives as they happen perhaps.. the only days I've got blocked out for work are all ones you wouldn't to do do it on anyway (Christmas is full of live sports production work lol) @atomicpoet not sure if the source code can some be licensed in a way disallowing such use cases @atomicpoet Mastodon has the ability to let people run their own instances by their domainserver they rented... so there is always an escape plan for this. @atomicpoet People centralize. It's up to software designers to come up with ways of making the UX centralized even if the actual servers aren't. You can't stop people from following those migration trends and you can't force them into little corners, and you can't tell them to just pack up and move to a new neighbourhood is their neighbours are awful. Or sellouts. You honestly couldn't thwart that with all the peer pressure or legislation in the world. You can only make it work somehow. @victoriadecapua You're using a service that is built for de-centralization. That is why it exists. If you didn't find this useful to a certain extent, you wouldn't be here. @atomicpoet Human behaviour *doesn't care* what the service is built for. This isn't a question of what was intended, it's the question of what the pressure of diaspora will ultimately create. I'm using the largest (as far as I can tell) server because it fits a social milieu for the greatest diversity and reach, with people I know, and people I don't. All the proselytizing just ends up making diehards look impossibly out of touch. @victoriadecapua Okay, but why are you here on Mastodon? Why not hang out on Twitter instead? And if you don't like Twitter, why not Post or Hive or Tribel? You have lots of choice, but you're here. @atomicpoet Because I told Elon Musk to get fucked in the ass by a sbarro cactus. I'm here because I want to be here. But I don't obey you, or your version of reality, or your software, or anything I don't choose to. I don't have to thwart shit for you. It's a waste of my creative abilities to think in your terms, and I solve problems that way. If I wanted to be on rails or deal with dogmatic thought policing, then you're right, I would be elsewhere. Just not your kind of joiner. @victoriadecapua So you don't like Elon. I don't like him either. Thing is, Elon can't buy Mastodon. You know why? Because Mastodon is de-centralized. Now certain entities will try to re-centralize social media. If we build a culture that values resistance to another wannabe Musk, then that means decentralizing social media. That's all I have to say. Have a wonderful night. @atomicpoet I am on an anarchistic server, I guess they won't sell me so soon. Gladly, various groups are able to be here. We just need to know who is sold and who owns stuff. And then we need to move accordingly.  @atomicpoet I assume being on a much smaller privately run instance helps? @atomicpoet @aral I’m gonna stay on #Hachyderm unless @nova turns evil, in which case I’ll probably spin up my own instance. @atomicpoet One of the ting you can do to twart this trend is to not use big instances stay on small <5000 users instance. A better way would be to host your own. @atomicpoet im going to keep posting about cock and balls to bring property prices down   @jesopo @atomicpoet given the kind of contents shared on pawoo, I'm not entirely sure that works @atomicpoet The risk is very high that one day we will not be able to run our instance. As it is for email now : in theory you can, but in reality it's a nightmare to not be considered as spam by GAFAM. @atomicpoet The speed at which Birdsite is being destroyed will surely deter parties from investing in another centralized social medium. Looking at the overall dynamics of the fediverse, we are surely witnessing a tipping point. It seems Musk has given this development a push. Next the Zucker with Meta. @atomicpoet Suddenly pleased - though I moved at speed and with little forethought - that I chose mastodon.social. Now looking at how I can support it financially in the face of a land grab  @atomicpoet and that's why is more and more important to support "independent" instances.  @atomicpoet Nothing. It is an inherent possibility of the decentralized model. Education is everything, and for many people a well managed mastodon.microsoft.com isn’t a bad option. But people should be aware that if they won’t put their money in the wegrabyourmoneyandrun.com online bank, a minimum of due diligence is necessary @atomicpoet@mastodon.social I agree the centralization is bad to the fedi, just it is weird to make such an appeal from the biggest fedi instance. Instance running by a company isn't necessarily a bad thing, Pawoo has been run by Pixiv, then Russell before changing-hand to this affiliate of Mask Network, a sponsor of Mastodon. @atomicpoet I will definitely not be reccomending large instances. A small instance is less likely to be acquired. And you can actually get to know the Admins. @atomicpoet I'm going to continue being anti-capitalist. What else can I do? I mean, at 58 years old, it's unlikely I'll suddenly start supporting the robber barons.  @atomicpoet Me personally? Keep using plastic straws and taking long showers because that's not where the problem is. @atomicpoet @alaric "as we've seen with the acquisition of pawoo.net"... Didn't you just say that many instances block Pawoo? I don't think these efforts are very effective... @atomicpoet Started my own instance. It's easy and I now control as much as I can of my social presence. @atomicpoet @atomicpoet getting ready to offer a service for “single instance domains” to fediverse! About a month out!!! @atomicpoet I'm thwarting the trend by running my own private instance on a #RaspberryPi - I admit this might not be the right move for a lot of folk. @atomicpoet I’m heading to Mozilla's instance once it's up, I trust their vision for the web over mostly anyone else's. Lovely contradiction in the Yahoo article: "The Pawoo acquisition marks another milestone of the Mask team towards the building of a decentralized social network and a free, open internet." A diverse #fediverse will be a healthy robust one. @atomicpoet nothing. We don't need to do anything. Let them buy up what they want. People will migrate or stay as they see fit. You and I and others don't need to do anything. @atomicpoet bruh. I built my own from source. Owning the platform is a big deal for me. I finally feel safe using social media now. I haven’t feel totally comfortable for a decade now.  That's like someone telling me, after my Globe and Mail column in 1999 said Linux was going to be massive, that 'someone will just up buying Linux.' They didn't fundamentally understand what it was. We'll have RedHat's here, we'll have Canonical's, we'll have companies which will do a for-profit thing to onboard people, just as ISPs emerged. But it sure as heck won't be re-centralized.... IMHO. (-; @atomicpoet to thwart this trend I am going to stay with my lovely admin who promised not to sell our instance  @atomicpoet not sell my 4 user instance for anything less than a billion dollars. Pretty sure that'll do it. @atomicpoet honestly, IMHO, I don't think a little centralization is "bad," as long as the majority of the network remains decentralized, which is likely with the current setup.  @atomicpoet This is why I wrote this article in November... https://2023.mattwilcox.net/protecting-open-ecosystems-from-centralisation/ @atomicpoet a question as an aside. This would not be possible (acquisition) on Nostr since Nostr relays are “dumb and don’t have to be trusted” - ie there would be no incentive to acquire a relay? Would that be correct? Here is how Nostr works high level (Source https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nostr) Personally. I am working on making hosting your own ActivityPub-empowered website so easy that a large percentage of people will host their own instead of use any provider.
@atomicpoet Not a thing. Nothing needs to be done. As we've been told repeatedly: We can pickup and move. @atomicpoet@mastodon.social I'm gonna set up my own instance, running non-Mastodon software and not federating with many of those large, low-moderation instances like .social, pawoo, and .online. @atomicpoet How do the big instances afford their server bills, or even make any money?  @atomicpoet Those who can should regularly donate to support their instance (I do), so no one feels that they must sell because of financial pressure. Also, pawoo.net isn't really in the fediverse, almost everyone blocks it for uncontrolled vile 8chan style behavior. @atomicpoet I have my own instance… I’ll probably just continue thriving right here :) |
@atomicpoet As much as I agree w/ you, such an effort will fail. We can all vote w/ our feet by walking away to other instances. And if such 're-centralized' instances get blocked, they lose the momentum of network effect fairly fast.