Gregory's Server@stroughtonsmith My takeaway is that this is a list of features that, if this proposal is enacted as written (which I believe to be a huge "if”, given the regime changes on both sides of the pond) will no longer be available to EU users at the end of 2025.
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@Gte @gruber @stroughtonsmith Is that offer to secede from the States and join Canada still open? Please?  @gruber oh don’t worry, there will be more lists! This is but two spec sheets for doing business in Europe @gruber This is the same company that bends over backwards for the Chinese market.  @daniel These EU proposals are far more broad and disruptive than anything China has required. And, China is a bigger market than the EU. @gruber @stroughtonsmith This is everything the Trump venture boys want too. They can’t make money off Apple at the moment. But they can invest in the companies who would now be able to build devices and services that more properly compete and integrate. @gruber @stroughtonsmith What is it with people who once championed the iPad now taking glee in any trouble that comes Apple’s way? I remember the now forgotten Fraser Speirs(?) being absolutely furious that Phil Schiller wished the Mac a happy birthday. Very strange people.  @gruber @stroughtonsmith If Apple wants to give up their competitive edge on android devices and give EU residents more reason to switch to Android then that’s probably fine. I give zero shits about whether the regulation is smart or just because Apple brought it down on themselves. If these regulations are untenable then think of it as an incentive for companies to not be so overtly anti-competitive in the future. @gruber @stroughtonsmith Okay, that means there would be no additional value to buy Apple devices instead of ones from other manufacturers then @gruber @stroughtonsmith I’m finding myself very torn on this latest batch of EU demands. On a philosophical level I don’t believe in the EU dictating Apples business. On a personal level, being able to Airdrop to or from my iPhone with a Windows or Android device is super compelling, and a meaningful usability improvement. The more I think about it, the more I think opening most of these would lead to a substantially better user experience in most cases. @RickWilliams @gruber @stroughtonsmith Knowing some technical details, I'm torn on this. Apple publishing protocol specifications for AirDrop won't make much of a difference, it was already reverse-engineered, but it would probably need changes all the way down to the WiFi chip firmware to implement on Windows and Android... @gruber @stroughtonsmith So Apple is going to continue to stomp their feet instead of doing right by their customers? That doesn't seem to have worked so far. @gruber @stroughtonsmith Wouldn't it kill their sales in the EU if they remove all those features? @jramskov @gruber @stroughtonsmith Suppose their sales go down 15 to 20%. The EU is what — 7% of their global market? That would be maybe a 1% sales hit. 1% is a bummer but the opportunity cost of keeping those features could be considerable. Put another way, would you dedicate 20% of your engineering staff to save 1% of your sales? Perhaps not. @bouncing @gruber @stroughtonsmith I could see it becoming more than that. There might be many side effects of such a decision. Companies might stop making apps for Apple's platforms or only spend the minimal amount of effort. Slowly, the user experience of Apple devices would get worse and hurt Apple sales worldwide. @jramskov @gruber @stroughtonsmith The same is true in reverse though; if there are too many “browser ballot” type user experiences, fewer people will buy iPhones and the ecosystem suffers. I could see an “AirDrop ballet” doing the same. @jramskov @gruber @stroughtonsmith Also every developer assigned to compliance is a developer not assigned to beating Samsung on new feature development. @bouncing @gruber @stroughtonsmith Apple could also have decided to make it easier for their developers by making those EU changes/requirements available worldwide, but instead they decided to make it more complex by limiting it to the EU. @jramskov @gruber @stroughtonsmith I don’t think the region flag is what is technically complicated. @bouncing @gruber @stroughtonsmith No, but now they have two separate code bases to maintain. @jramskov @gruber @stroughtonsmith That’s true. But take for example iPhone mirroring, where just not releasing it in the EU was the simplest solution. Having a single codebase would mean no one gets that feature. And it’s a really nice one. @bouncing @gruber @stroughtonsmith Why would it mean that? I don’t believe the DMA prevents such s feature? @jramskov @bouncing @stroughtonsmith The DMA seemingly requires Apple to make mirroring available on any device, not just their own brand of PCs (Macs). @gruber @bouncing @stroughtonsmith Have Apple given any statements that tells us? I haven't seen any other than “it's the DMA” and then everyone can speculate, but nobody really knows. It could certainly be that they should make it possible to do on Windows laptops, etc. as well. That would make it a bigger job for them to implement a public API/standard for it. To make the market work, different rules are required for the gatekeepers. @jramskov @gruber @stroughtonsmith Setting aside the business case that might exist against supporting competitors’ devices, any software developer can tell you what a poison scope creep is to a project and it getting green lighted. Going from mirroring iPhones on Macs to mirroring any device on any computer is beyond scope creep: it’s going from making a single feature to starting a reference implementation for a new standard. @bouncing @gruber @stroughtonsmith No doubt and I'm not surprised Apple don't like it. However, I’m so far on the EC side - it is way to early to conclude anything about how well the DMA work, but I agree with the premise about gatekeepers. These companies have become so big and have so much power they are basically monopolies without being it in the traditional sense. @jramskov @bouncing @stroughtonsmith It’s too early, of course, but to pass final judgment on the DMA’s practical effectiveness, but we can fairly say that so far the only practical effectiveness is to allow EU iOS users to play Fortnite again. @gruber @bouncing @stroughtonsmith I don’t think it makes sense to look at the effects yet. @bouncing @gruber @stroughtonsmith You imply that these requirements will all make the the products worse. They might just as well make the products better :) For instance, I think the USB-C requirement has made life as an Apple user better. @jramskov @gruber @stroughtonsmith USB C is definitely an improvement. But the browser ballot is definitely worse. There are good ideas and bad ideas. @bouncing @jramskov @stroughtonsmith iPhones was switching to USB-C anyway. Wasn’t thanks to EU legislation. iPad started switching in like 2018. @gruber @bouncing @stroughtonsmith I’m not convinced Apple would have switched by now - they argued a lot against it. Why would they do that if they were going to switch? @jramskov @bouncing @stroughtonsmith Apple was very clear in their argument, and they remain opposed to the mandate: it’s about the future, when they might come up with something better than USB-C. @gruber @bouncing @stroughtonsmith They also argued about all the existing kables that would become waste. I understand they want to control everything, but standards are generally a good thing and makes for a better experience for everyone. if they come up with a great new standard, it should be a new open standard that replaces USB-C for everyone. @gruber @jramskov @bouncing @stroughtonsmith 50% of their argument was also about the e-waste switching to usb-c would create. Based on their argument, it’s not at all clear when if ever they would switch https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/17/21070848/eu-apple-european-commission-common-charger-lightning-cable-port @callin @jramskov @bouncing @stroughtonsmith If they hadn’t switched, the new ProRes Log video capture wouldn’t be available. They wouldn’t be able to shoot their own keynotes on iPhones. https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/record-prores-videos-iphde02c478d/ios @stroughtonsmith @callin @jramskov @bouncing “Imagine” is indeed the operative word.  @gruber @stroughtonsmith @callin @jramskov @bouncing I think Steve's point here is that the USB-C mandate hasn't prevented Apple from innovating as they argued it would. It goes to show that the multi-trillion dollar company that they are will always be able to innovate, regardless of the regulations imposed on it. So perhaps they should just comply with them instead of acting like a spoiled child and relying on this disproven argument. @gergely @gruber @stroughtonsmith @callin @jramskov @bouncing If you created the playground, and it’s one of the only two playgrounds in the neighborhood, and you are actively making sure that only *your* kids can win or even play at the games on offer, then I’m sorry but you’re just a bully. And I better hope the city steps in to ensure that every kid in that neighborhood can play. @nileane @gruber @stroughtonsmith @callin @jramskov What confuses me about this discourse is that they are complying. This is what compliance looks like. @bouncing @nileane @gruber @stroughtonsmith @callin Isn't the EC still looking at whether Apple is actually in compliance or not? @jramskov @nileane @gruber @stroughtonsmith @callin Some legal jostling was always inevitable. And whatever tweaks come down the pike, I doubt they’ll be substantially different and I doubt they’ll satisfy the peanut gallery. Also the fact that it’s far from obvious whether they’re in compliance is evidence of a badly written law. @bouncing @nileane @gruber @stroughtonsmith @callin Perhaps, but I don’t completely buy that argument. Legal matters seems often take time. They have to make sure the judgement is right and fair. At the same time it is new regulation that everyone needs to become comfortable with. @jramskov @nileane @gruber @stroughtonsmith @callin What would need to happen for it to be clearly good or bad? Or mixed? @bouncing @nileane @gruber @stroughtonsmith @callin That’s not easy to answer 🙂 I hope it’ll reign in some of the extraordinary power these huge corporations have. @jramskov @bouncing @nileane @stroughtonsmith @callin None of this is a “legal matter”. The EU never found Apple guilty of violating any crime. None of this back and forth is happening through a court system. It’s all regulatory. Very different. @gruber @stroughtonsmith @jramskov @bouncing Now imagine being a business executive having to choose between the revenue of the MFA program, and shooting the keynote in a slightly better format. @callin @stroughtonsmith @jramskov @bouncing MFA has been negligible for years. Really hasn’t been important to Apple since the iPod era. Lightning being proprietary didn’t make any serious money for Apple. Nada. @callin @stroughtonsmith @jramskov @bouncing What does make money for Apple is selling their own branded $20-30 cables. They sell just as many USB-C cables as they ever did at Lightning’s peak.  @stroughtonsmith @gruber @callin @jramskov @bouncing my day job (security) will be indeed lot more interesting if they are forced to do all of this . @callin @gruber @bouncing @stroughtonsmith The e-waste argument I don’t buy at all. For one, they could’ve started by making their lightning cables more solid. |
@gruber @stroughtonsmith This you guys? Seems to the world you’ve all elected to forgo the idea of government at all. https://globalnews.ca/news/10924862/trump-republicans-us-government-shutdown-spending-deal/