Gregory's ServerI don't know what you're talking about. It's a very simple question: Do you think capitalism should be abolished, and if not, why?
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25 comments
Capitalism has existed as a system for about 400 to 500 years, not since the beginning of agricultural society started. Certain forms of market exchange and property rights existed prior to capitalism, but even those didn't exist always. People have existed without capitalism for thousands of years, and I've seen nothing to suggest that people can not go back to living without capitalism. @Radical_EgoCom @sule_becalm I hold the "revolution is the only solution" perspective of capitalist abolition. I believe that real change requires forcefully overthrowing the capitalist state and that reforms, while mildly helpful to the working class, will not abolish capitalism.  @ashtime @Radical_EgoCom @sule_becalm I don't think anything has ever really stopped worker-owned co-ops, except that most workers just want to cash a paycheque and be done with it, especially if there's a startup cost. The current reach of worker cooperatives, ESOPs, and EOTs is limited. They have not scaled (and won't scale) to a level that could address the needs of the entire workforce. These models mainly address issues within individual companies rather than at a societal level. Systemic problems like widespread income inequality and environmental sustainability require broader solutions. (Copilot, parenthetical emphasis is mine.) 2/3 While worker cooperatives, ESOPs, and EOTs provide valuable benefits and contribute to worker well-being, they might not fully address the broader systemic issues. Commons Capitalism offers a more comprehensive and holistic approach, focusing on equitable wealth distribution, community investment, and sustainability. (Copilot) #capitalism #economics #socialism 3/3 @commonscapitalism @ashtime Labour coops do not have any vision/demand out of what capitalism dictates to themselves. Their reform demands cannot change existing mode of production which is called as capitalism. Abolishing capitalism is a interdisciplenary matter including physchology not only social phychology. By the way I did not suggest any business model. I just tried to explain historical roots of capitalism those depends upon primitive agricultural society. 1/2 @commonscapitalism @ashtime The era where we can observe the surplus value. Thank you very much for your reading recommendation. 2/2 @sule_becalm @commonscapitalism #Capitalism is deeply rooted in history, but #history also shows systems can be dismantled&replaced. Worker-owned cooperatives and ESOPs may not scale alone,but combined with systemic change—like wealth redistribution,democratized production, and environmental prioritization—they would challenge capitalist frameworks. @Radical_EgoCom the #revolution you advocate is a valid path,ultimately probably the only realistic one-judging by history&present. @ashtime @sule_becalm @Radical_EgoCom While worker cooperatives, ESOPs, and EOTs offer significant benefits and have positive impacts, they may fall short in addressing all the comprehensive needs of societal worker well-being on a national scale. The limitations in their current reach, growth potential, and the systemic issues they can address make it challenging for them to be the sole solution. #capitalism #economics #socialism 1/4 The aggregate number of members in all worker cooperatives in the United States is estimated to be around 10,000 workers according to https://www.fiftybyfifty.org/2022/02/latest-worker-co-op-survey-shows-more-co-ops-but-fewer-workers/ and 14.7M workers in ESOPs according to https://www.nceo.org/articles/employee-ownership-by-the-numbers and the last number has stagnated at that amount for the last 8 reporting periods. 2/4 Why Commons Capitalism Remains Crucial: Broader Impact: Commons Capitalism aims to address income inequality and wealth distribution on a systemic level, reaching beyond individual companies. Equitable Wealth Distribution: By treating profits as a common pool resource, it ensures that wealth is distributed more fairly across all stakeholders, not just employees of specific companies. 3/4 Conclusion: While worker cooperatives, ESOPs, and EOTs provide valuable benefits and contribute to worker well-being, they might not fully address the broader systemic issues. Commons Capitalism offers a more comprehensive and holistic approach, focusing on equitable wealth distribution, community investment, and sustainability. (Copilot) 4/4 @commonscapitalism @ashtime Due to my opinion both of you are still arguing within the context of capitalism. Your suggestions may make the world a better place for human beings and others. But they cannot abolish capitalism. You both do not consider Nation as a problem and defense industries those nations have (must be abolished when capitalism is abolished) . I wish both of you can reach some of your suggestions but these are not the way of abolishing capitalism @sule_becalm @commonscapitalism What’s your suggestion? I think that nation-states’ existence and military industry, human desire for war are 2 separate issues-both existed through different economic models in human history. Capitalism is rooted in #colonialism and #imperialism - not existence of nations or wars. @ashtime @commonscapitalism İ tried to say your question about abolishing capitalism is not realistic. That's all . Pardon me if something I said suggested that capitalism can be abolished. It will never be abolished. Capitalism will always be the preferred economic vehicle for small closely held corporations and venture capitalists. Some corporations are too large to be converted to worker coops, ESOPs, EOTs, or CCEs. Additionally, capitalism is endless in breadth and width. @commonscapitalism @ashtime Sorry I gave this answer to @ashtime . By the way capitalism may be abolished under different conditions and in a very long time. If it is abolished, it most likely would be the result of societal collapse caused by a failure of worker well-being. The question then is what would fill the economic and political void created by societal collapse, probably a society similar to western Europe's in the 6th century with the beginning of a new feudalistic order. @commonscapitalism @sule_becalm Ok guys, you know that capitalism does not equal democracy and that we had different economic models in existence in the 20th century? How workers cooperatives work in #USA is jot the only model in the entire world. With the existence of #billionaires we already live in some kind of a #feudal system. @ashtime @commonscapitalism May be this can be called vulture capitalism. And we still don ot know the way of abolishing such a system out of capitalism dictates us. Maybe later in conjunction with changing energy/power resource, type of production , also means of prodyction, tecnology depending upon these changes social classes, social physchology, etc. not reforming in capitalist mode of production. By the way I am not against all these suggestions those cannot abolish capitalism. Do you even know what the hell capitalism is? Capitalism is, put simply, the private ownership of the means of production, with the addition with the profit motive and market competition. That can be abolished, even if nations and defense industries continue to exist. @Radical_EgoCom As an economist I really don't want to argue about this subject anymore which depends upon a great literature in my second language by means of social media. I wish you good luck implementing what you think. |
Why? Simply because after becoming agricultural society nearly all human history depends upon capitalist relationships. Therefore, capitalist kind of mode of production is very hard to be abolished.