Gregory's Server@Radical_EgoCom and if yes explain how an alternative system would work. I haven't ever heard of a system that isn't worse than capitalism.
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105 comments
@Radical_EgoCom @Reddog @FisherPeter Absolutely amazing isnt it that people having basic needs is controversial, but people having billions of pounds/dollars/etc of planes/houses/cars/yachts/hoarded cash whilst underpaying workers is acceptable and encouraged. Cuba. The Cuban government under Fidel Castro nationalized industries and implemented extensive social programs, particularly in healthcare and education, and as a result has achieved high literacy rates and a strong public health system, though the economy has faced challenges, particularly due to the U.S. embargo and limited economic reforms. @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom saying a communist country is paradoxal, communism is against the state To be fair, they asked me to give an example of a country where socialism worked, not communism. Depends on what you mean by "worse than capitalism". Capitalism makes luxury goods common; socialism makes common goods into luxuries. If you value economic equality above all else, and don't care if everyone is equally destitute and desperate, socialism is the system for you. @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom "but people are desperate and common goods are luxury to the majority of people under capitalism." Perhaps you could provide a specific example of a common good that is a luxury under capitalism. @AlexanderKingsbury @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom I did mention housing, but examples are plentiful. Food is another obvious one. In the USA, the most paradigmatic capitalist country in the world, 13,5% of the people face hunger, which is worse than the global average (9%), but even the majority of people who have access to food would consider it a luxury to purchase organic non-industrialised food. @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom Well, first, let's be clear; there US is FAR from being a totally capitalist system. We have massive amounts of regulation on many sectors; including, relevantly, housing, and food. Both sectors are heavily regulated. I do notice you compare your (unsourced) numbers to a global average, not to an average of non-capitalist nations. @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom "Look, capitalism is certainly the best system to extract wealth from the resources available, I give you that." I never asked for that, nor did I make that claim. @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom "Regulations were introduced to save capitalism after the crash of 1929" That implies regulations did not significantly exist beforehand. Is that an assertion you make? "The same thing happened in 2008." Why didn't the regulations already in place suffice? @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom Capitalism is an economic system, not a god. Asking for it to "end misery" is pointless, as it would be to ask ANY economic system to "end misery". @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom That's not the point. Capitalism simply says that taking a certain approach optimizes the distribution of scarce resources. WE decide what "optimum" means. And one of the great things is that we can come to different answers but still work together to achieve those disparate goals. @AlexanderKingsbury @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom but that's not how capitalism work. Resources are not scarce, they are already taken when we're born, and the owners and their heirs are the only ones to decide what to do with it. We only get to decide, through our representatives in government, how much tax to charge and what to do with the taxes collected. Simple as that. @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom Of course resources are scarce. That's an entering premise of an economy even existing. If resources were not scarce, we would need no mechanism by which to allocate them; we would need no economy. @AlexanderKingsbury @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom A flawed system can always be built over flawed premises. "There are currently 28 vacant homes for every one person experiencing homelessness in the U.S." — https://unitedwaynca.org/blog/vacant-homes-vs-homelessness-by-city/ @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom Look, I'm sorry, but this isn't just ECON 101 stuff. This is first day of ECON 101 stuff. Heck, this is basic common sense stuff. Just because you can point to A resource that you regard as plentiful (in a specific area) does not change that resources are scarce. People all have about as much air as they want to breath; that doesn't mean that there is enough of everything for everyone to have as much as they want. @AlexanderKingsbury @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom well if by scarce you mean finite, ok, you can't always get what you want, but by not scarce I mean everyone could get what they need, and excuse me if I just quoted The Rolling Stones right now 😂 @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom No, by scare I do not mean finite. By scarce I mean scarce. @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom Look, I'm sorry, but you just don't seem to be grasping the basic idea here. Maybe a specific example will work. Do you understand that titanium is a resource? @AlexanderKingsbury @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom yeah, and a finite resource on Earth for that matter @AlexanderKingsbury @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom That's an excellent example, thank you. Can we all decide to prioritize the medical use of titanium so that treatments are more affordable, or is it up to the owners of the mines and that's why we get titanium watches and cellphones instead? @Homempovo @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom Okay. Do you understand that it's better than steel for a lot of applications? Let's stay specific; it would be WAY better for most car components that are currently made from steel to be made from titanium. It's lighter, which means better fuel efficiency, and it's far more resistant to corrosion. Does that make sense?  @Homempovo @AlexanderKingsbury @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom The messed up thing is the movement never intended to be that unaffordable @FisherPeter @Radical_EgoCom there it is! As soon as I saw Cat's simple binary question, I just knew your wholly incorrect take would surface in response. Congratulations for falling for the trap lol @mrpieceofwork @Radical_EgoCom plesse explain your reply, i habe no idea what you are taliking about. The OG post says 'state your case if you DO NOT think capitalism should be abolished, not state what the alternatives are, yet you come in asking just that, with this statement: "I haven't ever heard of a system that isn't worse than capitalism." Insinuating that all alternatives to capitalism are also "worse". Maybe you worded that wrong. There ARE systems that are better than capitalism, and to not have ever heard of them means you're not trying to... @mrpieceofwork @Radical_EgoCom well, i asked, and i still haven't been given an answer. So please give one real life example of a better working system. @Radical_EgoCom In a mild defense of @FisherPeter , It should be said that believing “capitalism should be abolished” implies belief or promotion of a better, workable alternative—with workable being the operative word. While one commenter made some nice statements about socialist ideals, attempts to achieve these have come with their own destructions and injustices historically, which is a fair point to make. Yes. I explained to them that socialism is a viable alternative to capitalism here: https://mastodon.social/@Radical_EgoCom/113579381152010306  @IndyHermit @Radical_EgoCom @FisherPeter The USSR was communist in the same way Robespierre's France was democratic. @burnoutqueen @IndyHermit @FisherPeter The USSR wasn't communist. It was a socialist country that was aspiring towards communism. @burnoutqueen @IndyHermit @FisherPeter I understand the USSR the way it was, and it was socialist. Socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange either directly or through the state, and the USSR had collective ownership of those things through the state, making them socialist. There are many different versions of socialism. Just because the USSR didn't adhere to your specific preferred version of socialism doesn't make it not socialist. @Radical_EgoCom @IndyHermit @FisherPeter Is America even a little socialist for owning the public libraries and parks? @burnoutqueen @IndyHermit @FisherPeter Parks and libraries aren't means of production, so no. @burnoutqueen @IndyHermit @Radical_EgoCom @FisherPeter Robespierre was way more democratic than Staline USSR, there is no point about this @Citoyen_DC @IndyHermit @Radical_EgoCom @FisherPeter Yeah, the Stalin period is a whole can of worms on its own. @burnoutqueen @IndyHermit @Radical_EgoCom @FisherPeter Robespierre had been killed because he pushed for more democratic system, end of the monarchy and more equal society. "La terreur" was a special moment of counter-revolutionnary riots, not representative of his fights @Citoyen_DC @IndyHermit @Radical_EgoCom @FisherPeter Exactly the same argument is made to defend Lenin and Stalin. @Citoyen_DC @IndyHermit @Radical_EgoCom @FisherPeter Lenin directly modeled his actions on Robespierre, and there was even a statue of Robespierre built in the early USSR. @burnoutqueen @IndyHermit @Radical_EgoCom @FisherPeter Lenine's politic wasn't the same as Staline's... Moreover, displaying a root doesn't mean copying it  What will replace capitalism doesn't exist yet, so doesn't have a name, so you can't hear of it. Replace capitalism with what? First, you must be clear of what a system should provide for *everyone* (like material comfort, education, safety, breathable air, a future...). Then you look at the system we have, capitalism, and tweak it. And tweak it. And tweak it until your goal is met. At this stage, it won't be capitalism anymore.  |
@FisherPeter
Socialism (the collective ownership of the means of production by society), an alternative system to capitalism (the private ownership of the means of production by individuals or corporations) is better than capitalism in that it allows everyone in society, regardless of social status, to have access to the basic necessities of life (housing, food, healthcare, etc).
#Socialism #Capitalism