Gregory's Server
 187 comments
12
 @fraggle entirely self-inflicted tbh, by not making your device work with normal or unlicensed headphones, you invite these kind of solutions to exist    @hisham_hm @sinvega @sn0n @fraggle I’m a Venezuelan in this edge-of-the-world country :pika: The people here is tech savvy in a very different way that this engineer is: they mostly don’t care about what the underlying technology should do, they just care about solving a problem. In UX we call that “Jobs to be done”. You are in the wrong here, my guy.  @wtrmt @hisham_hm @sinvega @sn0n @fraggle I was going to say - the accordance of the headphones is that they only worked with Bluetooth. As someone who did manual and automated QA, the guy arguing the cable doesn't need to use Bluetooth sounds like a guy insisting everything works because the Unit Tests validated all the internal contracts, so it should work that way. I have broken a *lot* of software tools in staging/QA environments by simply not limiting what I input to sensible inputs. @wtrmt @hisham_hm @sinvega @sn0n @fraggle "Your Unit Tests work, right? Great, watch me toss this into your posting input on a browser loaded to your website: "';SELECT *;" That shouldn't break when I hit post, but here's the error, because *somewhere* in your Unit Tests' contract validated code, you're not sanitizing an input." @wtrmt @hisham_hm @sinvega @sn0n @fraggle (I'm not that aggressive about it; I just write up a bug report with the resulting console log information, or the API response code, or in worst cases, the stack trace, for them to use to fix it. And I do keep those tests safe enough to avoid taking down the environment, since as a QA Tester, it's my job to prove the core of what can be done, not the scale. But while that's an obvious example of a situation like that, there are many more.) @wtrmt @hisham_hm @sinvega @sn0n @fraggle Maybe I'm just grouchy (probably) but while it is true that this solves a problem, the alternate, "simple" solution (i.e. a copper cable) solves the problem more reliably. That said, I know my headphone preferences are less popular among the masses :) I do find the quoted post kind of classist and gross. I talked to a local (ruralish southeast US) about this issue and he said those headphones have been around for a while and thought everyone understood them. I think some people (I include myself!) get into these tech bubbles where anything that falls outside of that bubbles seems backwards or wrong. @rouseworld in the end, this whole product category of cheap wired headphones is disposable. These products are so flimsy that no one bats and eye about those issues, because the perceived value is so low. I used to have great sounding, durable, small and cheap headphones by Panasonic. Apple killed them when it eliminated the headphone jack.  @fraggle Not sure if I'm infuriated or just kinda impressed tbh lol Kind of amazing that setting up a whole wireless comms stack is apparently cheaper and easier than paying Apple's fees...modern tech is wild Forget all this talk of "remote towns" for a moment. How many of these are for sale on Amazon right now?  @raganwald @fraggle Remote town????? The OP (the one screenshoted) has a very bigoted take. I bought one of these at the pharmacy around the corner in the second biggest city in the country: Canada. I didn't realise it was Bluetooth until I read that post. And the UI should already have betrayed that fact. How would it betray that, if Bluetooth is turned off? Asking for a friend. (I'd certainly have had the same problems) @glitzersachen @raganwald @fraggle I didn't say Bluetooth was off. I just said that instead of just working it asked me to "connect". See https://cosocial.ca/@hub/112537864635711946 @raganwald @fraggle I've purchased more than one counterfeit Apple product on Amazon. They've somewhat cracked down but still allow third-party sellers to push their faux Apple wares.  @Chewyrobbo @raganwald @fraggle Are you saying that cheap headphones are faux Apple? That Apple owns the concept of headphones? @jhavok @raganwald @fraggle Huh? I'm not sure how you inferred that's what I was saying. I am saying that third party sellers are pushing Apple look-alike products that trick people into thinking they're buying genuine Apple.    @fraggle @cstross I really, *really* can't get on board with the original poster's conclusion though. This is entirely Apple's fault for having removed the standard analog audio port and left only a proprietary one requiring paying them to make a product for it; they set the incentives here entirely. And of course this also won't be a long-term problem because they've been thankfully forced by the EU to change that lone port to an actual standard one, so third-parties won't have to so resort.
 Meh. Who cares. The earbuds wouldn't be any better if they weren't "bluetooth”. And this way the user doesn't have to worry about charging their headphones. Win-win if you ask me. This was probably inevitable once Apple removed the headphone jack. @jonhendry @fraggle I'm imagining the "bluetooth" involved is old stuff with a really lossy audio codec that's good enough for a telco voice call but not good enough for rock'n'roll @jonhendry @fraggle audio over USB is easily lossless and low latency (not familiar with Apple's proprietary spec if there is one). Cheap BT is absolute trash. Where you probably aren't wrong is the DAC quality might be an hugely limiting factor either way. @fraggle that's actually a very clever way to avoid paying the Apple license. Hilarious 😏. @fraggle yup. Just realised that the cheapo adapter I bought here to use my wired headphones are like that. The BT device is named "lighting" (sic) and pretend to be "Beats" to connect.  @fraggle I've been aware of this for a while, eBay is full of cheap lightning-3.5mm adaptors that mention requiring Bluetooth to be on. What's weird to me is the author of the post blames the manufacturers and wants Apple to crack down - when this fundamentally Apple's fault for removing a simple, standard audio interface that doesn't require expensive Apple-approved chips from their phone. You should just be able to plug any old headphones into a phone! That's how it used to work!   Of course a hardware vendor will take the cheapest route, because Capitalism™️. Apple aren't the only ones who artificially limit access to their bus or network using special chips, specs, etc. Sounds like "the problem is Lightning", tbh. @fraggle white entitled guy goes outside his bubble and is surprised of people ingenuity, he proceeds to insult the locals: the story  @adra @fraggle  @fraggle@octodon.social  @fraggle The ONLY thing Apple need to do was adding a damn analog jack. But no... they wanted things done THEIR way! 🙄  @fraggle FUCKING HELL I DID NOT READ THE TOP TEXT AND I EXPECTED THE GUY HAVING A COOL REALIZATION BUT NO HE IS BEING A CUNT TECHBRO FUCKING HELL  Am I the only one wondering why he didn't ALSO complain about Apple deleting the headphone port and requiring manufacturers to use an expensive, due to Apple's licensing requirements, and incompatible solution? In my mind the problem lies with Apple. Not with the people figuring out workarounds for Apple breaking their existing wired headphone business. @fraggle It's not the port, it's the licensing fee. """While Apple doesn't issue a price sheet publicly it's been widely reported as $4 per lightning connector - and that in the past it's been as much as $10 per device. Feb 1, 2020""" @jackwilliambell    @fraggle a scam that only exists bc they stopped putting a standard 3.5mm audio jack on the stupid phone!! Yes, I understand, it's because Apple removed the headphone socket. Please stop telling me now. @fraggle I mean, that doesn't explain why I bought myself a USB c headphone jack (with a charger pass-thru, sold as a USB sound card) for work, and that was also just a Bluetooth device. @fraggle Actually it's not just that, but also the licensing price they put on Lightning. I don't think the same absurd "audio over Bluetooth with power by wire" would make economic sense with USB. @fraggle "True Apple lightning devices are more expensive to make." ??? why. also you messed up the alt text.
 @fraggle I just want them labelled properly. Apple cracking down on anyone for anything is the last of my desires. Also, USB-C fixes the entire premise of this problem. The problem is the Lightning port standard existing in the first place. @fraggle While I haven't programmed the bluetooth stack, I consider myself technically aware of how bluetooth works. I would be as angry and baffled as you. I actually prefer wired headphones because I'm cheap and lose things like airbuds. I'm pretty sure i've gotten counterfeit lightning headphones from Amazon in the past (they didn't require bluetooth luckily). Amazon has improved on cracking down but it still has counterfeit products. It seems it's still common in shops outside the US.  @fraggle i would think it is Apple to blame… why lock down with proprietary nonsense like lightening adapter!!! Why the nonsense of no stereo jack? @fraggle Haha I kind of do this on purpose: My newest mouse can do USB, fast RF, and Bluetooth. Initially, when I thought I should charge it, I would unplug the 2.4 GHz receiver from the mouse cable so I could plug the mouse cable into the mouse, and it would switch automatically to USB. However, given that radio performs identically to cabled, I found out it's much simpler to leave the receiver connected to the computer and plug a simple charging cable into the mouse. OTOH, I'd never try that with my keyboard, which can only do USB or Bluetooth. BT has become very good, but for an input device, it's not quite as good as cabled. For head-/earphones, the difference is night and day. My fondleslabs have headphone jacks, but if I had to use an adapter (lightning, USB-C, whatever) to get that jack, it would be even more clear: I'm using the cable for a reason; Bluetooth will never ever suffice in that situation. @fraggle with headphones for $12-15 the limit to audio quality is not going to be the bit depth of the audio, but the quality of the earbuds. For 99% of people, why does it matter if the same power powers the driver, but the bits of the wave get to the amplifier by bluetooth or by lightning? Why isn't it ok to sidestep apple's gatekeeping on plug-in earbuds?     @fraggle As I read the first two images, I thought that the reason was exactly what the OP put in his third image … so much BS out there now.  @fraggle Yet another way in which "what you don't know won't hurt you" is exactly untrue. What you don't know makes you easy to manipulate and cheat.  @fraggle Alternate take: They know perfectly well what Bluetooth is, and they also happen to know these wired headphones are the fakey Bluetooth kind, and said as much so you could get them to work properly. Yes, the tech is dumb, but no need to belittle the sales folk who clearly knew what was up.  @patrick_h_lauke @fraggle @cstross or not have bullshit certification that serves no real purpose ..  @fraggle what struck me as hilarious/ disappointing is that this very smart person thinks it is not okay if someone else solves a problem creatively and charges for it, but it is welcome when Apple does it and charges an order of magnitude more. @fraggle@octodon.social And yet if Apple didn't have that stupid "Made for iPhone" crap just so they can milk a few more shekels from manufacturers there wouldn't be an issue. @fraggle seems like a very fun cost engineering effort. it looks like the true apple lightning devices being more expensive to make is a result of apple charging licensing fees? and presumably doing cryptography shenanigans or whatever it is companies do to make it harder to reverse engineer chips. i guess if apple-approved chips are $4, and ESP32s are $1, there's an obvious choice...  I'm buying a fucking AM/FM radio next time. And a dumbphone or whatever must we call them now BEFORE this shit spills to Android-land.  @angelastella@social.treehouse.systems @fraggle@octodon.social get a small one. I have a road star that's OK, its only FM tho. 18 buchs  @fraggle Yes, it’s insane that they built it this way. Must be a way to force people to buy apple earbuds (though I don’t see how) But I find the overarching issue that people who know the least are the most confident more infuriating. *that* is what will be humanity’s downfall (even though I doubt it has ever been different - surely cavemen who never built a fire were instructing those who did)  @fraggle would've prob helped if Apple just used open fucking standards instead of making up their own shit so they can skim some money off the top with licensing money
@fraggle what the- I thought it was apple being weird and checking for Bluetooth in software for some reason the real answer is even more wtf. Anyway how the hell does they conclude apple needs to 'crack down' on it and not just that they need to stop arbitrarily restricting what headphones will work on it for no reason (money)  corporation does a thing nobody likesevery time @fraggle bluetooth headphones is the only thing that they know, they didn't actually know how to fix the issue they just think the solution to everything is bluetooth and dont know how a wired connection works anymore
 @whitequark yeah this ain’t it. Also pretty gross to whiteknight on behalf of these people because something doesn’t fit in his mental model  I had a friend who once used wifi to connect a micro controller to an LED **on the same PCB** in one of his projects and I still make fun of him for it. (he didn't want to have a wire visible or run a path) I wonder if there are other instances of wireless communication within perfectly wire-able devices in the wild. Big Clive needs to be sent some of these monstrosities to take them apart!  @futurebird @fraggle my whole career right now is supporting the development of 2.4GHz wireless communication ICs including BT. Even I'm constantly wondering why people are putting Bluetooth in things that obviously don't need it (I'm looking at you medical devices).   @Affekt @futurebird @fraggle I was looking at kitchen scales recently and came across one that for some reason had Bluetooth. What's worse, according to reviews, it wouldn't even work at all unless paired to something despite having a display. I did not buy that one.  @fraggle Instead of cracking down on that, I wish Apple would stop being such a bitch abouth 3rd Party accessories. @fraggle and I thought it was stupid that the robot at work has to stay in the automatic mode for me to operate it manually instead of having it in the manual mode. He started the thread with something quite interesting that taught him about a way of designing tech products: Tech obfuscation. This is a well known way to swindle tech obsessed people to buy shiny and expensive things: the juicer that was only milking juice from a bag, the bunny AI crapware that was only a disguised Android App, etc. I never saw this method of developing a product as a way of designing around a licensing limitation while hiding complexity. Kudos to the Chinese ingenuity, no to the dismissive xenophobia of the original author. @wtrmt They definitely have a point in that the whole thing is ridiculous and shouldn't be necessary, and maybe there is indeed an exploitative markup... but that's the fault of apple in the first place and just typical modern commerce in the second. And yeah the op went ahead and put the whole thing through a xenophobic and weirdly corporate bootlicky lens 🤷♀️ @sinvega this whole licensing business — the business of making money limiting your product— in the end just waste the company resources that could be employed in making better and more interesting products. Can I sing Karaoke in this new car? Other markets are brimming with special needs and opportunities to design great products.  @fraggle I don't think Apple is interested in making its clients more technically savvy: they strive on technical ignorance (like most of the tech world, Free Software being one of the rare counter examples). That's deeply embedded in the principle that "it just works".  @fraggle I'm surprised he was able to open up all that stuff and try it while people waited in line. Then he ended up not buying anything 😅 @fraggle that hurt my brain so much xD must have felt like in some cosmic horror story...    @fraggle So I read this, and I thought to myself, “There’s no way that’s true.” I turned my Bluetooth off, plugged my budget Skull Candy wired headphones into the dongle, and plugged it into my iPhone. It recognized the headphones immediately. This story is hogwash. The writer either had a defective device, or they’re just a plain ol’ liar.  @fraggle Engineers at small companies make a good workaround and make money - and aren't taxed by a megacorp. I see nothing wrong here. It's a cool hack - both in terms of tech and in terms of the system.  @fraggle Is it weird, incoherrent BS... YES @fraggle Wow, that's crazy and infuriating. It's also a little bit genius on the manufacturer's part. Hopefully the switch to USB-C will resolve this in time.  @fraggle@octodon.social The alt text on the third image is a copy of the alt text from the second image, just FYI. (I know this because the UI on Sharkey overlays the alt text over the image, blocking some of the text in your screen shots, making it impossible for me to read without being able to read the alt text or opening the image separately. Thanks, I hate it. Not your fault though.)  @fraggle  @fraggle I think my brain just melted a little reading that. Good God. Also, thank you for adding alt text @fraggle I'm sincerely baffled to have just learned about this conundrum. As someone from Chile, I'm especially lamented by the ignorance of those who stood like they were right. Even if the newest iPhones have USB-C, stuff like this is another reason why I won't ever buy Apple nonsense. Your contributions to Bluetooth are more than appreciated! |
@fraggle Wow, they actually made “wired bluetooth headphones" a thing.