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Jon S. von Tetzchner

Congress in the US has banned Copilot for security reasons. I would take it further. Really the way Windows is coded now, it is a significant security problem. The idea that it is unclear whether you are using local data or online data is unacceptable.

This includes:

- Login. Login should be local. You are not logging into a service. You are logging into a computer. The service should be separate from the computer.

- Copilot. Clearly another case where you may not realize that you are sharing data by asking a question.

- OneDrive. Another case where local data is backed up in the cloud, without active actions by you as a user. Backup is great, but you should have to explicitly enable it and there should be a warning that your data may be scanned.

- Windows. In reality even Windows is now a problem given the login issue and any tracking that is happening.

Online cloud services can be great, but one should never be forced into online services or lured into them. Any computer should work fine without having to use OS online services, except basic services, like updates and the like.

#Windows #Linux #Microsoft

reuters.com/technology/us-cong

1 April at 16:23 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
78 comments
mercurial idiot 🌒

@jon I got a new computer recently and I was absolutely shocked that there is no way of getting out of signing into a Microsoft account. The only way to use the computer otherwise is to use a different OS!

1 April at 16:26 | Open on infosec.space
Jon S. von Tetzchner
Marta Threadbare

@jon @writeblankspace last time I tried (win11 22h2) before I went back to win10, just removing the ethernet cable and not telling it which wifi to use worked? did they remove that way?

1 April at 17:43 | Open on masto.ai
Jon S. von Tetzchner

@cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

They make it harder for each release. Last time that did not work. Why should one have to use hacks like that?

1 April at 17:56 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Jahin Z.

@jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace I have a suspicion that they might also use A/B testing of random user account policies/blocks too, so one person might find it easy to skip online accounts while another might find it impossible (both on the same version on clean installs)

1 April at 18:50 | Open on mastodon.online
Baron Von J

@jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
Currently if the computer has wifi and it finds nearby networks, you have to open a command prompt and reconfigure the out-of-box-experience to not require network

windowscentral.com/how-set-win

1 April at 19:19 | Open on mas.to
weilawei

@baronvonj This is insanity to be forced into these kinds of measures.

1 April at 19:44 | Open on mastodon.online
Baron Von J

@weilawei I concur. Unfortunately I'm only interested in the detachable form factor at a screen size that is comfortably usable as a tablet and run full desktop Lightroom. Which pretty much leaves me with the Surface line.

1 April at 19:45 | Open on mas.to
Asta [AMP]

@baronvonj@mas.to @jon@social.vivaldi.net @cygnathreadbare@masto.ai @writeblankspace@infosec.space ... I'm sorry, if there's a nearby network the computer has found, Windows... requires you to use it right now? What the fuck?

1 April at 19:48 | Open on fire.asta.lgbt
Baron Von J

@aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
yeah, you can't continue with the out-of-box setup without either connecting wifi and logging in an MS account or reconfiguring OOBE via command-line. It's a garbage take from a company that realizes the future of their revenue is with the subscription cloud services. so they're trying to bundle it all into the OS.

1 April at 19:51 | Open on mas.to
Asta [AMP]

@baronvonj@mas.to @jon@social.vivaldi.net @cygnathreadbare@masto.ai @writeblankspace@infosec.space Is it like: if it finds open wifi or just any wifi?

because like, either way, that is a problem. "I see some open wifi, just sign in there!" wuuuuuuuut

1 April at 19:53 | Open on fire.asta.lgbt
Baron Von J

@aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
Actually I think it's if OOBE finds wifi hardware in the computer at all and can load a driver for it.

1 April at 19:55 | Open on mas.to
Corb_The_Lesser

@baronvonj @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

I used that the other day and it worked on 11 Pro. Also labored through following a batch of advice about getting rid of telemetry, disabling unwelcome services, etc. Not sure anything done outside Settings would survive the next update. Hardly seemed worth it, actually.

1 April at 19:55 | Open on mastodon.social
Baron Von J

@Corb_The_Lesser @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
That is for sure true that some of these settings can get reverted in the big OS updates (like 1909 to 20h2 to 22h2).

1 April at 19:57 | Open on mas.to
Fabián Robledo

@cygnathreadbare

Last week I started a brand new laptop for work and I used that trick. I do not know the exact W11 versión, but not connecting to the Internet allowed to me to create a local account.

Ironically, i only used it to download Ubuntu and make a live usb, as we mainly use GNU/Linux at work.

@jon @writeblankspace

1 April at 18:22 | Open on paquita.masto.host
Mycotropic

@FabianRY @cygnathreadbare @jon @writeblankspace

In a similar vein I open Edge once; to download #Firefox. I still have to deal with ~10 Edge processes in the background all the time though.....

1 April at 20:22 | Open on beige.party
Marta Threadbare

@mycotropic @FabianRY @jon @writeblankspace in my previous win10 setup I had periodic slowdowns in even the simplest games, somehow Edge was starting a few processes and closing them 20 seconds later constantly every few minutes, no idea what for.

1 April at 20:37 | Open on masto.ai
YurkshireLad

@writeblankspace @jon there are ways if you google them. The section titled "How to Bypass Windows 11 Microsoft Account Requirement Using Command Prompt" worked for me on the page howtogeek.com/836157/how-to-us

1 April at 16:39 | Open on mastodon.social
Jon S. von Tetzchner

@YurkshireLad @writeblankspace

You should not need to use hacks to avoid logging into Microsoft or accidentally using Microsoft services.

1 April at 16:40 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
mercurial idiot 🌒
BashStKid

@YurkshireLad @writeblankspace @jon
These do work, and aren’t very involved, but really really should not be necessary.

1 April at 19:57 | Open on mastodon.online
Not David Beckham

@writeblankspace @jon
I get around this by using a Microsoft account that is only used for logging in to the computer. It’s the only reason I have a Microsoft account. I use it for nothing. It’s pouting in the corner of a locked room.

1 April at 19:55 | Open on mstdn.social
🐝rent

@writeblankspace @jon there are custom Win11 builds that strip all the garbage out of Win11, but then you have to decide to trust the random fan-made build.

2 April at 1:21 | Open on mindly.social
🍄🌈🎮💻🚲🥓🎃💀🏴🛻🇺🇸

@jon I feel like government probably deploys Windows differently than consumers do

1 April at 16:29 | Open on mastodon.social
Jon S. von Tetzchner

@schizanon

I think we should be able to trust our computers to not be placing things online, without explicit consent. Security applies to companies and individuals as well.

1 April at 16:40 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
🍄🌈🎮💻🚲🥓🎃💀🏴🛻🇺🇸

@jon some people want their things to be backed up online

1 April at 17:01 | Open on mastodon.social
Jon S. von Tetzchner

@schizanon , sure, and if people were offered the service and not lured into it, it would be fine.

1 April at 17:03 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
🍄🌈🎮💻🚲🥓🎃💀🏴🛻🇺🇸

@jon having had to set up OneDrive for multiple relatives, I don't think it's that simple

1 April at 17:07 | Open on mastodon.social
Josh Carlson

@schizanon @jon

Speaking as a local government worker, they don't!

1 April at 17:30 | Open on mapstodon.space
YurkshireLad

@jon does Windows Pro, or whatever they call it these days, let you install with a local account?

1 April at 16:39 | Open on mastodon.social
Jon S. von Tetzchner

@YurkshireLad

Not sure if there is a way around it. Some hack. By default you will get a Microsoft account with all the security issues that entails.

1 April at 16:41 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Otto

@jon @YurkshireLad It is not only possible, it is easy. Just don't log in with a Microsoft account and do not create one during the process. Problem solved. I've used that method for years, I still use it, it works fine.

1 April at 22:51 | Open on fosstodon.org
Nore715

@YurkshireLad @jon I think only windows enterprise lets you chose your login method. Can anyone confirm that ? I read that it also has far less trackers than win fam & pro. Two main reasons why I recommend using Linux when possible.

1 April at 17:56 | Open on mamot.fr
Otto

@nore715 @YurkshireLad @jon I can confirm that that method is false, local accounts work fine with just a Windows home setup.

1 April at 22:53 | Open on fosstodon.org
Jon S. von Tetzchner
Otto

@jon @nore715 @YurkshireLad been running the latest for a few months now, and it works fine. It has always worked fine and it works the same way it has done for the past 2 years? Still using a local login for me.

1 April at 23:19 | Open on fosstodon.org
Louis Khor

@jon What I'm increasingly annoyed by is how Windows has become "nag-ware."

Screenshot shows a OneDrive backup "important notification" that won't go away on Windows 11. And my wife pays for Office 365 for both of us.

So even after we pay for the service, they still nag us to back things up on OneDrive. Which I don't want to do. I've yet to find a way to disable this.

There's also a persistent nag on the system tray icon that won't go away for this.

The net result is that if there ever is an important notification, I'd never know. Because the notifications have become completely useless.

@jon What I'm increasingly annoyed by is how Windows has become "nag-ware."

Screenshot shows a OneDrive backup "important notification" that won't go away on Windows 11. And my wife pays for Office 365 for both of us.

So even after we pay for the service, they still nag us to back things up on OneDrive. Which I don't want to do. I've yet to find a way to disable this.
1 April at 16:52 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Methylzero

@louiskhor @jon I bet someone who is pirating Office is free from this burden. You wouldn't download a car, am I right?

1 April at 17:01 | Open on mast.hpc.social
Jon S. von Tetzchner

@louiskhor , indeed, it is unacceptable. Now in Europe that DMA forces Microsoft to allow people to uninstall OneDrive. Sadly that is not worldwide at this time and I still think the choice to use OneDrive should be opt-in and not pushed.

1 April at 17:06 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Let'sAbolishBorderControls

@jon @louiskhor

Thinking of going back to linux tbh

1 April at 17:14 | Open on mastodonapp.uk
Chaotic Natural 20

@jon
That reminds me of a toot I saw a while ago that suggested that you tell Win that you live in the EU when setting up...
@louiskhor

2 April at 0:02 | Open on tech.lgbt
Brian Moakley

@louiskhor @jon This has got to be a company wide mandate. When I had an Xbox Series X, I kept receiving marketing notifications that I could not disable.

Same happened with Gamepass on PC to the point I just let it expire. Now I just use Windows to launch Steam.

1 April at 20:27 | Open on mastodon.social
Josh Carlson

@jon

I do drop-in tech support days at my library, and half the issues I've seen relate to OneDrive in one way or another.

1 April at 17:34 | Open on mapstodon.space
Captain Steph :fedora: 🇨🇦

@jon On a corporate Windows, your login is on a server, since your pc is part of a domain. I'm pretty sure gouvernent pcs aren't using home editions.

As for home editions, I agree. Microsoft is pushing really hard to make people use their services. Made me switch for Linux!

1 April at 19:36 | Open on fosstodon.org
yes, it's me, liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦

@sirber @jon tbh, they were already pushing that in W8. it's why i switched to Linux back then, only to find out Ubuntu is being colonized by Micro$$$oft and have been adopting a lot of their fuckery.

had to shut down wifi on all computers i installed 20.04 so that i would properly "skinny" install from an USB. w/wifi, it calls back to Ubuntu servers for a lot of the non-essential ish. it stalled all my installs.

haven't upped to 24.04 yet because am seriously considering moving to Debian.

1 April at 19:53 | Open on mastodon.social
Captain Steph :fedora: 🇨🇦

@blogdiva @jon I can't stand Ubuntu. I love Fedora. It's up to date and shit free.

Debian should be nice too, but packages are a few majors behind. For a server, it might be ok, but for a desktop, it's not.

1 April at 20:08 | Open on fosstodon.org
yes, it's me, liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦

@sirber @jon but didn't Red Hat also start locking down a lot of projects? am more than frustrated and annoyed with these companies. am exhausted, TBH.

1 April at 20:10 | Open on mastodon.social
Captain Steph :fedora: 🇨🇦

@blogdiva @jon I think they use Fedora as their upstream. They sponsor but not own, if I understand correctly.

1 April at 20:12 | Open on fosstodon.org
rrb

@jon Just a quick question: you guys actually use Windows?

I think that is the problem. When I have to use Windows, I have an XP VM that I use. Makes life much better.

1 April at 19:48 | Open on allthingstech.social
tallship

@jon

Yes, indeed - absolutely.

When in doubt, we might best be served by contemplating the following script:

`./kill_sarah_connor.sh`

#tallship #Copilot

⛵

.

1 April at 19:49 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Corb_The_Lesser

@jon Making use of services not running on the local hardware opt-in would be a very good thing. Could be done in the OS install.

1 April at 19:50 | Open on mastodon.social
Wiredfire :BA:

@jon with each new piece of nonsense from MS I’m increasingly pleased to have moved to Linux Mint. Still using OneDrive though for my sins.. nothing else comes close for value and fitting my needs :-/

1 April at 20:19 | Open on mas.to
Alligator

@jon Windows: unsafe at any speed

1 April at 20:24 | Open on fosstodon.org
Random Tux User :fedora:

@jon
Not refuting anything you said, but I think the government has a lot less to worry about Microsoft spying on them. There are probably secret contracts or agreements or things like that behind the scenes that severely restrict what Microsoft can do with government data.

And unlike for individual users, companies will often be very careful about circumventing these kinds of contracts for the government since the government is much more able to respond harshly. Though this is just my guess.

1 April at 20:40 | Open on fosstodon.org
gunstick

@jon you forgot about the recent outlook update which replaces your local outlook client by a cloud solution one, without telling you. In the process all your imap mailboxes and credetials are transfered to Microsoft.

1 April at 21:06 | Open on mastodon.opencloud.lu
BirdInFire :mastodon:

@jon i’m not seeing one of your point (login must be local)

from a security perspective i say no the online capability of microsoft account allow to have a full password less login backed by hello

no the major problem is the fact that the OS send data online without any user input

So online login is not a problem if the os do not send user data online without any user’s consent

1 April at 21:24 | Open on mastodon.social
Jon S. von Tetzchner

@deflockcom

IMHO having online login means that your login data might just be hacked in yet another hack. Your are also then recognized across devices and can be tracked across devices. It is also the first step to then push further online services, that you may or may not want.

I also do not think you should be forced to use Windows Hello, that includes pins and simple questions. If you want to just use a long, difficult password, then that should be your choice.

1 April at 22:55 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
BirdInFire :mastodon:

@jon care to explain how you actually « hack » a system that rely on private / public key

oh god they will have your public key what an horror (when you enable passwordless account in microsoft there is no password to steal only public key of your passkey / yubikey

for the choice i’m not for it we have let the user choose results ? password is the most used password so now i’m for removing this choice since we are in cyber wars weak security choice is a luxury we cannot afford anymore

1 April at 23:00 | Open on mastodon.social
DELETED

@jon Windows should not be used after reading this story due to privacy concerns. Linux might be the best choice if he or she worries about privacy.

1 April at 21:42 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Joel Pomales

@jon For work? We use O365. It works well. I don't store any personal data in the machine. All business data is on OneDrive/Teams. They OK with this? I'm OK with it.

My personal data passes only through #Linux rigs. I host my data in my NAS. No Windows shenanigans for me.

1 April at 22:17 | Open on mastodon.social
Jon S. von Tetzchner

@joelpomales

I think if you do not trust Microsoft online services with your data, you should not trust your business data with it either, but that is just me.

1 April at 22:50 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Joel Pomales

@jon I agree. But it's not my business. 🤷

1 April at 22:53 | Open on mastodon.social
llanciawn

@jon Couldn't agree more. I'll have to replace Outlook when it goes cloud. I don't want my emails in another place.

1 April at 22:38 | Open on mastodon.social
Rein of forgiveness

@jon
> Congress in the US has banned Copilot

Click bait.

1 April at 23:09 | Open on tooters.org
Simplicator

@jon Relatedly, iOS 16 broke local USB Calendar sync to a host computer. It says it’s doing it, but it doesn’t. #Apple did similarly a decade ago, trying to force everyone onto iCloud, but people raised a stink & they restored local sync functionality. Not this time :(

1 April at 23:26 | Open on federate.social
Korbs

@jon Since 2020, I've just made a switch to Linux full-time and as of this year I'm now locally backing up photos/videos to my own home-serve using the Immich project.

2 April at 0:36 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Chris Hessert 🇺🇸 🇺🇦

@jon
No Microsoft for me, thanks.

2 April at 1:32 | Open on mastodon.online
IoT is the grey goo

@jon Yes, but you forgot Outlook and its new grab-your-emails rubric. If you don't allow MS cloud to copy all your emails from local or other cloud services, then you can't get updates (and the program will keep nagging you that updates are available). #darkpatterns #microsoft

2 April at 2:08 | Open on infosec.exchange
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