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Paul Cantrell

Doing sloppy, biased resume screening is the •easy• part of HR. Generating lots of sort-of-almost-working code is the •easy• part of programming. Producing text that •sounds• generally like the correct words but is a subtle mixture of obvious, empty, and flat-out wrong — that’s the •easy• part of writing.

And a bunch of folks in businesses are going to spend the coming years learning all that the hard way.

10/

35 comments
maya_b

@inthehands ie. you still have to do your homework, and getting something else to do it for you isn't likely to get it right

Paul Cantrell

At this point, I don’t think it’s even worth trying to talk down business leaders who’ve drunk the Kool-Aid. They need to make their own mistakes.

BUT

I do think there’s a competitive advantage here for companies willing to seize it. Which great candidates are getting overlooked by biased hiring? If you can identify them, hire them, and retain them — if! — then I suspect that payoff quickly outstrips the cost savings of having an AI automate your garbage hiring practices.

/end

Paul Cantrell replied to Paul

Yeah. The spam arms race is playing out in many spheres, and it feels kind of desperate right now tbh. A defining feature of our present moment.

From @JMMaok:
mastodon.online/@JMMaok/111953

Paul Cantrell replied to Paul

More of Paul’s grumbling on the topic of the AI mania sweeping the business world:
hachyderm.io/@inthehands/11192

Voline replied to Paul

@inthehands @JMMaok Look y’all, how about we just cut the Gordian Knot here and destroy capitalism? No adverts in a world with no money.

OddOpinions5 replied to Paul

@inthehands

we often hear about bad decisions made by local, state, or federal goverments
and a large part of this is cause gov't info is public (at least in the US)

but we rarely hear the details of bad decisision by corporations

spend 100 million on a new website that is so bad it gets buried ?

No One ever knows, cause that is private info

and no one seems aware of this

[ edit ] of course, the right wing spends a lot of time & $ harassing the media about this

@inthehands

we often hear about bad decisions made by local, state, or federal goverments
and a large part of this is cause gov't info is public (at least in the US)

but we rarely hear the details of bad decisision by corporations

spend 100 million on a new website that is so bad it gets buried ?

No One ever knows, cause that is private info

DELETED replied to Paul

@inthehands Hiring managers are overwhelmingly white women and men and already so biased that AI is only a representation of themselves. Either way the ones who deserve the most, lose out. I wouldn't be able to go through the things that white people have said to me in interviews and how they act on the job but its no short of unprofessional, white supremacist, narcissistic, unintelligible and so far removed from humanity I don't know how they were raised because its hard to be that ignorant

P J Evans replied to DELETED

@gentrifiedrose @inthehands
I had a lead person who was nice enough (though self-promoting) in groups, but was unqualified for the work they were doing, and genuinely a bigot when not in a group or where they could be overheard. (HR required two witnesses.) They had the pieces of paper, though, and I didn't...but I think they were afraid I'd try for their job. (Didn't want it; I loved the one I was hired for.)

DELETED replied to P J Evans

@PJ_Evans @inthehands Over 80% of #HR are white women so hiring will always be biased and the fear that someone wants their job is no different than saying the mexican immigrants want to rape and steal. The paranoia comes from #narcissism where they think they'll be treated the way they treat others 😂 no one wants their job. #hire

P J Evans replied to DELETED

@gentrifiedrose @inthehands
At that company non-whites were well represented at all level, so that wasn't a problem. It was that the one person was able to game their bigotry so they couldn't be reported and fired. (It was visible in the group: fewer Latinos and no blacks.)

DELETED replied to P J Evans

@PJ_Evans @inthehands That happened in my governement job where I thought I was lucky to work in the most diverse company but the minority were white men and women who had outsized power. As studies show, the fewer the whites, the bigger the discrimination and the more damage they unleash.

P J Evans replied to DELETED

@gentrifiedrose @inthehands
Mine had Asians, men and women, in high places, as well as Latinos. And Blacks... I think it was run better when the money guys had less power, though.

DELETED replied to P J Evans

@PJ_Evans @inthehands Always, inequality always leads to greed and broken society.

Pusher Of Pixels replied to Paul

@inthehands Definitely agree. The applicant screening part is a huge problem given how biased the AI systems inherently are.

I'm not sure the 'opportunity' of gathering the AI rejects is viable though. AI applicant screenings will find large numbers of qualified candidates. Just much whiter, male and homogeneous in nature.

That will *eventually* harm the companies, but we aren't starting from a fair playing field. So in the short term it's yet another block on one side of the societal unfairness balance.

@inthehands Definitely agree. The applicant screening part is a huge problem given how biased the AI systems inherently are.

I'm not sure the 'opportunity' of gathering the AI rejects is viable though. AI applicant screenings will find large numbers of qualified candidates. Just much whiter, male and homogeneous in nature.

Paul Cantrell replied to Pusher Of Pixels

@pixelpusher220
Right. What I’m describing isn’t easy. But to the extent that hiring processes are flawed, there is a competitive advantage there to be found.

Pusher Of Pixels replied to Paul

@inthehands Agreed. Hopefully it can be used successfully!

DELETED replied to Paul

@inthehands AI is never going to hire a candidate named Devonte who was the local black student union president in favor of Theodore William Authier III who was polo president in college. 😂

Martha Howell replied to Paul

@inthehands
Backing way up, how many jobs require skills that are relevant to a specific sport? (And no, "teamwork" isn't an answer. There are a million non-sports examples of teamwork that can be highlighted in the average person's work history.)

Paul Cantrell replied to Martha

@MHowell For sure. I mean, the premise is to paint a “whole person” picture that fosters useful conversation in the interview, but I’m sure as often as not things like this become a discrimination vector. Conversely, though, I don’t think it’s possible to scrub enough personal identity characteristics from a resume to prevent discrimination.

Analog AI replied to Paul

@inthehands You can just buy the same AI, and interview only people whose resumes were rejected.

Eubie Drew (Spore 🦣)

@inthehands

This is how competitive systems learn: the language of death. In this case corporate death.

Politics careens from one failure to the next. Movement death, often learning something, but it only lasts a while.

Biological evolution: same thing. Species death.

Medicine too, though we work very hard to deny it. Death.

Technology is wrong more often than right. Progress still happens because the failed bubbles guide us violently.

DELETED

@inthehands The white bruhs that code will always see a resume that says Director as more powerful than a resume that says Assistant despite the director really being a buzz word that has nothing to do with a job and assistant meaning assistant manager of a retail chain that requires more people skills and work ethic than "director". AI is always going to weigh their own white male bias more highly than #womenofcolor in #hiring.

P J Evans replied to DELETED

@gentrifiedrose @inthehands
Doing QC is "less than" being lead person, even though it requires a lot of knowledge and experience.

DELETED

@inthehands Hiring managers are so unskilled that in studies, choosing random resumes resulted in a more competent and happy workforce. Hiring managers generally hire people they like or remind them of themselves which always results in a bullied workforce because managers aren't exactly the best workers or nicest people. #hiringmanager. They lack the self awareness to know when they should hire the coal covered in dust vs the shiny diamond.

Matt McIrvin

@inthehands I think there is one exception--for a lot of people in creative fields who may have some kind of borderline ADHD condition, getting past the blank page or the digital equivalent is a real struggle. And if there's something that can push them past that step from nothing to something, they'll find it useful.

There's a powerful temptation to just use version zero, though, especially if you're not the creator but the person paying the creator.

Paul Cantrell replied to Matt

@mattmcirvin Indeed, I ran a successful exercise much along these lines with one of my classes (see student remarks downthread):
hachyderm.io/@inthehands/10947

I think there really is a “there” there with LLMs; it just bears close to no resemblance to the wildly overhyped Magic Bean hysteria currently sweeping biz. Generating bullshit does actually have useful applications. But until the dust settles, how much harm will it cause?

JP

@inthehands The victims will learn the hard way. The people doing it will learn the easy way: making huge amounts of money and then skipping town before the poisoned soil kills all the crops, ready to do it again to a fresh set of victims.

StevenSavage

@inthehands in a discussion I saw someone noted that a "removing AI from workflow" consulting company would soon be viable.

Morten Grøftehauge replied to StevenSavage

@StevenSavage @inthehands Let's be honest, management isn't trying to add AI to workflows, they are trying to replace workflows with AI.

skybrian

@inthehands

One of these is not like the others. Here’s how I think about it: many processes can be thought of as generating a large number of leads and then screening them to find the good ones. In classic AI this a generate-and-test algorithm. It’s vital that your testing works or you will get bad answers.

Using AI for the “generate” phase is not nearly as bad as using it for screening phase, provided that your tests are good. And we do know how to test our code, don’t we?

Paul Cantrell replied to skybrian

@skybrian In the cases of hiring, coding, and writing, there is a point where the number of “leads” is high enough, and the quality is low enough, where the cost of screening them is •worse• than starting from scratch. And I think a lot of people are huffing a lot of fumes right now about just how soon that point comes.

Janeishly

@inthehands The same applies in translation - both AI and human. It's easy to produce something almost, but not entirely like a piece of natural language, but the flow won't be quite right, the word choice clunky, the rhythm subtly off. (I was tempted to use only two examples in that last sentence as a demonstration!)

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