Maybe the secret why the #deltachat project with "just" a dozen active contributors succeeds in delivering cross-platform apps, instigating the #chatmail server network and spearheading the #webxdc app paradigm, lies in asking the right questions:
- Is it really needed?
- Can we not do it?
- Is there a simpler way that requires less changes?
- What is the interesting next impl step that is already interesting itself for users, without requiring first completing a big refactoring project?
Did you know that #deltachat does not need and does not use key servers? Most other messengers (wa/signal/matrix/threema/...) actually operate or incorporate a cryptographic key server, managing the cryptographic identities of all users. Delta Chat uses decentralized protocols for key management avoiding a central storage of identities. The SecureJoin protocol is the key (sic!) innovation and was independently analyzed by ETH Zürich researchers earlier this year .... https://delta.chat/en/2024-03-25-crypto-analysis-securejoin
Did you know that #deltachat does not need and does not use key servers? Most other messengers (wa/signal/matrix/threema/...) actually operate or incorporate a cryptographic key server, managing the cryptographic identities of all users. Delta Chat uses decentralized protocols for key management avoiding a central storage of identities. The SecureJoin protocol is the key (sic!) innovation and was independently analyzed by ETH Zürich researchers earlier this year .... https://delta.chat/en/2024-03-25-crypt
@delta Funny enough this also happened the other way round to the russian developers of the XABBER Android Jabber/XMPP client receiving a letter from the German @BNetzA due to a similar failure to understand how that app worked:
Great, so #chatcontrol was not moving forward today thanks also to various interventions from folks around the fediverse .... In particular thanks @Mer__edith for the clear take from Signals side. But it's clearly not canceled and Hungary will retry getting it through, and France, having elections soon, might drop out of opposing it? Let's stay vigilant about #chatcontrol and help eg @netzpolitik_feed and @edri and other groups to help us working against authoritarian #chatcontrol fantasies.
As you know, governmental forces within the EU, the US, the UK, Russia and others are in a hot competition on who gets to be the first to subvert end-to-end encryption. A few days ago, we got another letter from Roskomnadzor, the #russia telco authority, to help them get at user data or metadata for #deltachat users. But there is no central registry of e-mail addresses, messages or decryption keys. So we declined. Sorry, not sorry.
While we do have criticisms of its centralized architecture and other choices we highly regard Signal for ushering in a decade of popularizing end-to-end encryption. We particularly appreciate @Mer__edith doing excellent communication work there. It's disingenuous that tech-billionaires Musk/Dorsey fuel attacks on her and another female colleague, hinting at Telegram as a more secure messenger. Comparing security of Signal with Telegram simply results in "Type Error: incompatible arguments".
@delta@Mer__edith Signal is overall better for content privacy than Telegram.Telegram audio and video calls are also E2EE.But comparing Telegram Secret Chat and Signal Messages I think Telegram Secret Chat has more privacy and anonymity.Ex:peer to peer #messaging with E2EE.
Often overlooked from our "but e-mail!" skeptics: Any sufficiently advanced P2P messenger will eventually re-invent a custom, partial form of e-mail ... because users want to communicate when their apps are offline or not foregrounded and active at the same time. See https://briarproject.org/download-briar-mailbox/ for a recent example.
Delta Chat goes the reverse route by providing a secure and interoperable e-mail based messaging experience and then adds P2P tech like https://webxdc.org on top.
Often overlooked from our "but e-mail!" skeptics: Any sufficiently advanced P2P messenger will eventually re-invent a custom, partial form of e-mail ... because users want to communicate when their apps are offline or not foregrounded and active at the same time. See https://briarproject.org/download-briar-mailbox/ for a recent example.
This begs the question: when will we see a version of Delta Chat that is fully P2P, essentially a mail-server-in-my-smartphone. Sounds like a stupid idea until it doesn't. If the phone of my correspondent is up, no third-party. If it isn't, I can contact their backup, vps-hosted mail server thanks to... MX priorities. Everything is there already.
>Any sufficiently advanced P2P messenger will eventually re-invent a custom, partial form of e-mail
That's correct, pure P2P is a pipe dream. The solution, however, is federation, and email is only one protocol among many.
ActivityPub should work just as well, but it is modern, extensible, with a rapidly growing userbase, and may eventually replace email. Consider supporting it. The secure fediverse messenger still doesn't exist, and many have promised to build one, but you can be the first who actually delivers.
>Any sufficiently advanced P2P messenger will eventually re-invent a custom, partial form of e-mail
That's correct, pure P2P is a pipe dream. The solution, however, is federation, and email is only one protocol among many.
ActivityPub should work just as well, but it is modern, extensible, with a rapidly growing userbase, and may eventually replace email. Consider supporting it. The secure fediverse messenger still doesn't exist, and many have promised to build one, but you can be the first...
Delta Chat is an in-between project: often ignored as a messenger by e-mail companies/experts and then ignored by messenger companies/experts because of its use and interoperability with e-mail. As Heinz von Foerster once said: "If you are doing something genuinely new then don't ask the experts. If you do something that has already been done, then, by all means, ask the experts." FWIW many experts have verified Delta Chat's security mechanics https://delta.chat/en/help#security-audits :)
The problem with asking the experts about something genuinely new is, according to Heinz von Foerster, that they will only explain to you why it can't work or why it is a bad idea. We had no shortage of such experts in the past years :) However, common objections like
"e-mail is too slow", "secure e-mail is not possible", "you can not do a Whatsapp-style interface on top of e-mail" are having an increasingly hard time to be upheld because of the reality of Delta Chat apps working :)
"but e-mail !1!!!" Is probably still a number one objection from experts and power users who refuse to fathom that e-mail protocols are a viable option for instant messaging even if it demonstrably works, is fast and secure :) We'd be happy if someone engaged in a proper comparison with xmpp and matrix specs and impls, really the only three messenging protocols deployed and implemented at scale. (Can't compare that with Signal or WhatsApp which don't have wire specs!). https://github.com/deltachat/deltachat-core-rust/blob/main/standards.md
"but e-mail !1!!!" Is probably still a number one objection from experts and power users who refuse to fathom that e-mail protocols are a viable option for instant messaging even if it demonstrably works, is fast and secure :) We'd be happy if someone engaged in a proper comparison with xmpp and matrix specs and impls, really the only three messenging protocols deployed and implemented at scale. (Can't compare that with Signal or WhatsApp which don't have wire specs!). https://github.com/deltachat/deltachat
@delta The fact that it's "just e-mail" is what makes it so wonderful and why it has saved my ass while all other means of IM are actively blocked where I live. So keep going!
The default setup of #chatmail is for open signups (anyone can get an address) but some operators implement a private signup protocol and that's fine and easy enough to do because https://github.com/deltachat/chatmail/ is a small machine.
Chatmail addresses should be abundant and safe to use for anyone , and cheap to operate with basic skills .... A few thousand chatmail routers might already cover adresses for 10 billion people, with less resource/energy usage than a single VC funded LLM startup :)
#deltachat just got four major usability improvements as the 1.44 releases are rolling out
💗 Reactions on all platforms
💗 iOS Push notifications
💗 Multi-account desktop sidebar
💗 share invite links via other messengers. Enjoy :) https://delta.chat/en/2024-03-12-jumbo44
Given the experiences of the last decade it's healthy to distrust #decentralized tech if
- it's mainly developed by a centralized power structure
- the involved technology is very complex
- there is coin or VC funding involved
#deltachat has 1/100th, if even that, of what other popular messenging projects have in terms of moneys. But our distributed top-notch expertise in UI, crypto, networking tech and our federated collaborative practises across these concerns, try to make up for it ...
@adele est-ce que tu as regardé un peu @delta ? Je trouve que ça correspond à beaucoup de tes pratiques. Les applis webxdc se limitent à 640 ko. Je pensais que le bot pour publier sur un write.as te plairait aussi (c'est pas .md par FTP mais on est pas loin !)
The 1.42 app releases are rolling into the stores, providing a major security upgrade that was long in the brewing and testing: guaranteed end-to-end encryption, protecting against compromised servers or networks (MITM attacks). The releases also enable multi-device synchronization of pinned/accepted/blocked/muted chat states, a new global gallery for desktop and many bug fixes and little improvements .... #deltachathttps://delta.chat/en/2023-11-23-jumbo-42
If you like delta chat and know somebody experienced with iOS developments please send them our way, retoots welcome.
With all other platforms.we have at least two devs engaged but would like to up our iOS game .... Even advising on a day-per-week or loose pro-bono basis could be helpful but someone who gets their hand dirty would be even better. Remote paid job available. For more background see https://delta.chat/en/2022-12-15-uidevjob and adjacent recent blog posts.
The talk from @hpk about "Delta Chat and WebXDC" at #cccamp23 is online at https://media.ccc.de/v/camp2023-57191-delta_chat_messenger -- at our camp village a lot of people onboarded from hackspaces around the world and we've had many fun discussions with various people, among them Paul and Niklas from @briar , @ninabreznik from wizardamigos and DAT, security trainers from the "Cybersyn" project in latin america, @maxigas from CILAB Amsterdam, @okdistribute to name just a few ... #cccamp23 was wonderful time, thanks everybody!
The talk from @hpk about "Delta Chat and WebXDC" at #cccamp23 is online at https://media.ccc.de/v/camp2023-57191-delta_chat_messenger -- at our camp village a lot of people onboarded from hackspaces around the world and we've had many fun discussions with various people, among them Paul and Niklas from @briar , @ninabreznik from wizardamigos and DAT, security trainers from the "Cybersyn" project in latin america, @maxigas from CILAB Amsterdam, @okdistribute to name just a few ... #cccamp23 was wonderful...
We are waiting since 8 days on @fdroidorg to publish a) our disabling of the 1.40.0 release b) our 1.40.1 fdroid release that we did a few hours after users reported crashes. Status is tracked here https://github.com/deltachat/deltachat-android/issues/2639#issuecomment-1692416810 .... We had dozens of users reporting that their fdroid #deltachat install became unusable and we are very sorry about it but also can't do much else than wait. Don't deinstall anything, please, but wait for fdroid to publish the update after which things will function again.
We are waiting since 8 days on @fdroidorg to publish a) our disabling of the 1.40.0 release b) our 1.40.1 fdroid release that we did a few hours after users reported crashes. Status is tracked here https://github.com/deltachat/deltachat-android/issues/2639#issuecomment-1692416810 .... We had dozens of users reporting that their fdroid #deltachat install became unusable and we are very sorry about it but also can't do much else than wait. Don't deinstall anything, please, but wait for fdroid to publish...
1.40.1 is available now from inside the @fdroidorg app - this will "unbrick" all devices that had 1.40.0 installed and could not start delta chat, phew! 🥳
Delta Chat is not as popular as other messengers but with decentralized messaging it's not doing so bad, is it? Or which decentral messengers do you know that
- have an as strong Usability driven development model,
- is constantly reaching out for cross-project collab
?
Delta Chat is not as popular as other messengers but with decentralized messaging it's not doing so bad, is it? Or which decentral messengers do you know that
- have an as strong Usability driven development model,