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Delta Chat

#deltachat works despite some ongoing state level blocking and is used by people in bad network situations. That is all fine. But does it also work in german ICE train wifi?

Happy to report:
Yes, not only message sending and receiving work reliably in the train but we could also instantly use a webxdc realtime app between different trains, with peer-to-peer connections :)

Greetings and good travels everyone!

#38c3

T.F.G.

@delta

Wow that's great! I heard not even DB Navigator works reliably on german trains ^^

Which is a positive with this particular app ...at least in my eyes. But that's another story ;-)

Delta Chat

On the occasion of Russia today testing regional blocks of telegram and other apps (especially in eastern Russia) and #WhatsApp down or flaky in many countries the last hours ... Allow us to note that it is very hard to block or bring down #deltachat apps on any larger scale because

A) it's hard to block the planetary email server network

B) #chatmail servers have some extras :)

C) DNS blocks won't work

D) you can use shadowsocks/socks5 proxies easily on android/iOS

Sorry not sorry :)

Шуро
Is there any difference between using chatmail and conventional mail server function-wise?
aburka 🫣

@delta why wouldn't it work to DNS block the chatmail servers?

Delta Chat

major milestones with #deltachat in 2024 so far:

- addressed security analysis issues from Applied Crypto Group at ETH Zurich for hardened guaranteed end-to-end encryption

- instant onboarding with #chatmail servers (likely the fastest, most secure and reliable e-mail servers you can find on this planet)

- push notifications on Android/iOS with all #chatmail servers

- introduction of #P2P networking with #webxdc realtime channels

- and ❤️ reactions!

... and the year is not over yet :)

Delta Chat

We are an in-between project. #deltachat is in-between traditional messengers and email apps and #p2p paradigms, #chatmail is in between the massive email server network and #webxdc is in-between e-mail, @xmpp and the web ecosystem (but outlaws central platforms) ... Our approach is rhizomatic, i.e. based on, and changes with, various collaborations and joining contributors. We don't have stable funding and need to regularly apply for public funds ... And are surrounded by VC funded projects

Delta Chat

Those of you who have to work through Google, Apple and other store's compliance, we feel you! Maintaining around 16+ target distribution sites for cross platform apps takes a constant toll on us.

One of the giant features of #webxdc app developments is precisely that no store is needed. You can just write an index.html, a .js file and pack into a zip file and everyone can use this as an app in their chats, no store needed for permission and distribution.

webxdc.org/docs/

Delta Chat

We just boosted a report from someone (we don't know) summarizing and reporting about recent court happenings in Moscow against us. We confirm these legal proceedings are indeed happening and we are represented by a lawyer there ... wetdry.world/@cybertailor/1135

There are rumours that a theater play work-titled "how to arrest a protocol?" will be presented at #38c3 btw :)

SP

@delta how shameful 🥹! How do they even have any jurisdiction? Can't you just ignore them?

Delta Chat

Are you interested in enshittification-resistant application development?

After almost two years of collaboration with the wonderful @n0iroh team, we are happy to announce that #deltachat 1.48 apps on all platforms contain top-notch Peer-to-Peer networking support, including hole-punching and forward-secret end-to-end encryption. It is exposed through the new #webxdc realtime APIs and there are some nice initial showcase apps 🎉

delta.chat/en/2024-11-20-webxd

Show previous comments
LPS
@delta @n0iroh looks amazing, especially the ephemeral live chat app!
Ditol

@delta
Sounds really cool. It is really a pity that delta chat doesn't seem to get much adoption. (At least I don't know anyone who uses it.)

@n0iroh

Delta Chat

With our #deltachat #chatmail and #webxdc efforts we put all intelligence on the end devices, and architecutally separate it from a transport layer that routes safely and fast but knows nothing.

There are a dozen or more #chatmail servers across many jurisdictions, all safely interopable with each other and classic servers.

Turned out we can dumb down email servers by relying on cryptography instead of IP reputation and ai/spam filtering. And have 200ms delivery times. We are not done :)

Show previous comments
Daleth Hausmeister

@delta

Runs very well on a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 with 40°C and less then 1 Watt over mobile-internet.

No other concept do so.

breadcat

@delta aside from latency, jurisdiction shouldn't matter with proper e2ee

Mick

@delta Delta chat is a very good messenger. I love it. The only drawback I have compared to xmpp messengers is that it does not support audio and video calls. I know this is difficult with emails, but if somehow you could make a calling sound when somebody calls to a jitsi video meeting ID that is already registered with Delta chat account.

Delta Chat

Maybe the secret why the #deltachat project with "just" a dozen active contributors succeeds in delivering cross-platform apps, instigating the #chatmail server network and spearheading the #webxdc app paradigm, lies in asking the right questions:

- Is it really needed?

- Can we not do it?

- Is there a simpler way that requires less changes?

- What is the interesting next impl step that is already interesting itself for users, without requiring first completing a big refactoring project?

Delta Chat

Did you know that #deltachat does not need and does not use key servers? Most other messengers (wa/signal/matrix/threema/...) actually operate or incorporate a cryptographic key server, managing the cryptographic identities of all users. Delta Chat uses decentralized protocols for key management avoiding a central storage of identities. The SecureJoin protocol is the key (sic!) innovation and was independently analyzed by ETH Zürich researchers earlier this year .... delta.chat/en/2024-03-25-crypt

Did you know that #deltachat does not need and does not use key servers? Most other messengers (wa/signal/matrix/threema/...) actually operate or incorporate a cryptographic key server, managing the cryptographic identities of all users. Delta Chat uses decentralized protocols for key management avoiding a central storage of identities. The SecureJoin protocol is the key (sic!) innovation and was independently analyzed by ETH Zürich researchers earlier this year .... delta.chat/en/2024-03-25-crypt

Delta Chat

Third time is a charm!

Watch us tirelessly explaining to Roskomnadzor how e-mail works! The three innovations in our third reply are that we

a) request the international law their request is grounded on (as if they would care)

b) communicate that their assumptions, even according to russian laws, are wrong (as if they would care)

c) state explicitly that Delta Chat is unlike WhatsApp, Signal or Telegram (doh!)

#chatcontrol-delenda-est

A letter from merlinux to Roskomandzor:
Regarding registration of Delta Chat provided services in Russia
with the following key content: 

1) You fail to reference relevant International Law that would give you the authority to request
any interaction from us as an organization residing within the legal framework of the European
Union. If you don’t reference any international law or treaty, you are required to direct your
queries to the german foreign ministry instead, which in turn would get in contact with us.
2) Even if your request was grounded in international law, merlinux is not an „ICO“ or
„Information Communication Organizer“ as defined in Section 10.1 of 149-FZ. In particular, we
maintain that this base assumption stated in your letter is not correct:
„According to the results of the analysis the information resource delta.chat
<https://delta.chat/> , the owner of which is a foreign organization merlinux GmbH, was found
to have the capability to receive, transmit, deliver and (or) process electronic messages of
Internet users.“
Unlike Telegram or Whatsapp, the information resource „delta.chat“ does not have the ability
to receive, transmit, deliver or process electronic messages. All users of our e-mail client apps
choose electronic message processors („e-mail servers“) sovereignly themselves, without our
knowledge and without sending their messages through a central server like it happens with
Telegram or Whatsapp.
Show previous comments
Dominik

@delta Funny enough this also happened the other way round to the russian developers of the XABBER Android Jabber/XMPP client receiving a letter from the German @BNetzA due to a similar failure to understand how that app worked:

cmshs-bloggt.de/tmc/telekommun

photo of letter from Bundesnetzagentur
photo of letter from Bundesnetzagentur
Delta Chat

Great, so #chatcontrol was not moving forward today thanks also to various interventions from folks around the fediverse .... In particular thanks @Mer__edith for the clear take from Signals side. But it's clearly not canceled and Hungary will retry getting it through, and France, having elections soon, might drop out of opposing it? Let's stay vigilant about #chatcontrol and help eg @netzpolitik_feed and @edri and other groups to help us working against authoritarian #chatcontrol fantasies.

Delta Chat

We got note of three #deltachat articles from different angles the last days:

Roskomvoboda, human rights org in russia, interviewing @Xeniax about our recent interaction with the russian telco authorities. roskomsvoboda.org/ru/post/delt

@unixtippse about "do's and don'ts" after re-engaging with Delta Chat happily.
binblog.de/2024/06/15/deltacha

@durian about Signal and "Delta Chat for anarchists" phlanticap.noblogs.org/delta-c

We got note of three #deltachat articles from different angles the last days:

Roskomvoboda, human rights org in russia, interviewing @Xeniax about our recent interaction with the russian telco authorities. roskomsvoboda.org/ru/post/delt

@unixtippse about "do's and don'ts" after re-engaging with Delta Chat happily.
binblog.de/2024/06/15/deltacha

Delta Chat

As you know, governmental forces within the EU, the US, the UK, Russia and others are in a hot competition on who gets to be the first to subvert end-to-end encryption. A few days ago, we got another letter from Roskomnadzor, the #russia telco authority, to help them get at user data or metadata for #deltachat users. But there is no central registry of e-mail addresses, messages or decryption keys. So we declined. Sorry, not sorry.

A letter from merlinux GmbH to ROSKOMNADZOR Russian Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of Telecom, Information Technologies and Mass Communications per e-mail: 97-fz@rkn.gov.ru

Freiburg, June 13th 2024 
Your request for registration of Delta Chat regarding provided services in Russia Dear Sirs and Madams, on June 11th 2024 we received your request by e-mail to delta@merlinux.eu to register for provided messaging services in Russia for the application Delta Chat whose developments we indeed facilitate and distribute to app stores and many platforms. If we understand your request correctly, you also requested access to decryption keys and access to user data. 

However, Delta Chat is an e-mail application which lets users choose their e-mail providers at their own discretion. There is no central registry of e-mail addresses and we have no access to message contents, let alone decryption keys which only exist on user devices. We therefore kindly request that you strike us from your list of service providers. 

best regards and thanks, holger krekel, managing director, merlinux GmbH
Show previous comments
bijram

@delta but without reading all our private messages #EUGoingDark will happen - NOT

arutaz

@delta but what will you do when Chat Control becomes law in EU?
Leave the EU market? Still exist for people using android and f-droid or a like?

t3x
@delta

Роскомпозор продолжает копать под всё и вся.
Уроды.

#roskompozor #roskomnadzor #ru
Delta Chat

While we do have criticisms of its centralized architecture and other choices we highly regard Signal for ushering in a decade of popularizing end-to-end encryption. We particularly appreciate @Mer__edith doing excellent communication work there. It's disingenuous that tech-billionaires Musk/Dorsey fuel attacks on her and another female colleague, hinting at Telegram as a more secure messenger. Comparing security of Signal with Telegram simply results in "Type Error: incompatible arguments".

Vibuda Nimsara

@delta @Mer__edith Signal is overall better for content privacy than Telegram.Telegram audio and video calls are also E2EE.But comparing Telegram Secret Chat and Signal Messages I think Telegram Secret Chat has more privacy and anonymity.Ex:peer to peer #messaging with E2EE.

#signal #signalapp #telegram #E2EE #privacy #messagingapp

Delta Chat

Often overlooked from our "but e-mail!" skeptics: Any sufficiently advanced P2P messenger will eventually re-invent a custom, partial form of e-mail ... because users want to communicate when their apps are offline or not foregrounded and active at the same time. See briarproject.org/download-bria for a recent example.

Delta Chat goes the reverse route by providing a secure and interoperable e-mail based messaging experience and then adds P2P tech like webxdc.org on top.

Often overlooked from our "but e-mail!" skeptics: Any sufficiently advanced P2P messenger will eventually re-invent a custom, partial form of e-mail ... because users want to communicate when their apps are offline or not foregrounded and active at the same time. See briarproject.org/download-bria for a recent example.

rakoo
@delta

This begs the question: when will we see a version of Delta Chat that is fully P2P, essentially a mail-server-in-my-smartphone. Sounds like a stupid idea until it doesn't. If the phone of my correspondent is up, no third-party. If it isn't, I can contact their backup, vps-hosted mail server thanks to... MX priorities. Everything is there already.
silverpill

@delta

>Any sufficiently advanced P2P messenger will eventually re-invent a custom, partial form of e-mail

That's correct, pure P2P is a pipe dream. The solution, however, is federation, and email is only one protocol among many.

ActivityPub should work just as well, but it is modern, extensible, with a rapidly growing userbase, and may eventually replace email. Consider supporting it. The secure fediverse messenger still doesn't exist, and many have promised to build one, but you can be the first who actually delivers.

@delta

>Any sufficiently advanced P2P messenger will eventually re-invent a custom, partial form of e-mail

That's correct, pure P2P is a pipe dream. The solution, however, is federation, and email is only one protocol among many.

ActivityPub should work just as well, but it is modern, extensible, with a rapidly growing userbase, and may eventually replace email. Consider supporting it. The secure fediverse messenger still doesn't exist, and many have promised to build one, but you can be the first...

Delta Chat

Delta Chat is an in-between project: often ignored as a messenger by e-mail companies/experts and then ignored by messenger companies/experts because of its use and interoperability with e-mail. As Heinz von Foerster once said: "If you are doing something genuinely new then don't ask the experts. If you do something that has already been done, then, by all means, ask the experts." FWIW many experts have verified Delta Chat's security mechanics delta.chat/en/help#security-au :)

Delta Chat

The problem with asking the experts about something genuinely new is, according to Heinz von Foerster, that they will only explain to you why it can't work or why it is a bad idea. We had no shortage of such experts in the past years :) However, common objections like
"e-mail is too slow", "secure e-mail is not possible", "you can not do a Whatsapp-style interface on top of e-mail" are having an increasingly hard time to be upheld because of the reality of Delta Chat apps working :)

Delta Chat

"but e-mail !1!!!" Is probably still a number one objection from experts and power users who refuse to fathom that e-mail protocols are a viable option for instant messaging even if it demonstrably works, is fast and secure :) We'd be happy if someone engaged in a proper comparison with xmpp and matrix specs and impls, really the only three messenging protocols deployed and implemented at scale. (Can't compare that with Signal or WhatsApp which don't have wire specs!). github.com/deltachat/deltachat

"but e-mail !1!!!" Is probably still a number one objection from experts and power users who refuse to fathom that e-mail protocols are a viable option for instant messaging even if it demonstrably works, is fast and secure :) We'd be happy if someone engaged in a proper comparison with xmpp and matrix specs and impls, really the only three messenging protocols deployed and implemented at scale. (Can't compare that with Signal or WhatsApp which don't have wire specs!). github.com/deltachat/deltachat

rakoo
@delta

What would you like to see compared ? Overhead ? Time of implementation ? Resource usage ?
DelegateVoid

@delta The fact that it's "just e-mail" is what makes it so wonderful and why it has saved my ass while all other means of IM are actively blocked where I live. So keep going!

Delta Chat

The default setup of #chatmail is for open signups (anyone can get an address) but some operators implement a private signup protocol and that's fine and easy enough to do because github.com/deltachat/chatmail/ is a small machine.

Chatmail addresses should be abundant and safe to use for anyone , and cheap to operate with basic skills .... A few thousand chatmail routers might already cover adresses for 10 billion people, with less resource/energy usage than a single VC funded LLM startup :)

Delta Chat

#deltachat just got four major usability improvements as the 1.44 releases are rolling out
💗 Reactions on all platforms
💗 iOS Push notifications
💗 Multi-account desktop sidebar
💗 share invite links via other messengers. Enjoy :)
delta.chat/en/2024-03-12-jumbo

DELETED

@delta The only missing feature is the a/v calls . I hope you'll still implement it by default

🔻 Christophe Herbet

@delta

with Multi-account desktop sidebar, black screen on the pinephone @mobian or @pmOS stable

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