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 @hq1 what *always* dumbfounds me with such responses as yours is this, though: Okay, let's say you're right. Let's say that this has no way of fixing anything what-so-ever. That it will have no effect at all. Here's my question: why spend the time discouraging people from doing it, then? Like, if you truly believe in what you said, there is no point in such discouragement. It's inevitable it won't work. Why the urge to make such a comment? It strikes me as a definition of pointless. no but you’re saying that if enough people sign (which I’m happy to, don’t get me wrong, what else can I do?) the parliament will look into it. Then some legislation has to happen. And then the rich will pay taxes that will help fix the climate crisis/debt? Is that what you’re saying? I’m not discouraging anyone, I truly hope the probability of succeeding is greater than zero my man @hq1 I am saying that this is as good an attempt as any. Maybe it will work. It only costs a signature. The point of this initiative is that a new tax is imposed on the super wealthy, and that tax is then earmarked for fighting climate crisis. I like that construction. Obviously it's a long way to an actual legislation, but one has to start somewhere. A lot of money is spent on convincing people that wealth taxes don't work because the wealthy can escape to another state. And then when wealth taxes are implemented they prove to work, because moving has a significant cost, and if your wealth is built on local networks of power, which it frequently is, moving also destroys wealth. Curious to learn about any examples. Can you cite some? Again, not trying to be cynical/sarcastic > And then when wealth taxes are implemented they prove to work (…) I meant that specifically, you made it sound like it has happened somewhere in the world? Genuinely no idea. I share the wishful thinking, if that’s what it is. @hq1 90% top tax rate in the USA before 1964 or so. That's one of the things that helped end the Great Depression and create the post-war prosperity. @hq1 @Leszek_Karlik @rysiek @wikiyu New York decided to increase taxes on the most wealthy, the only people leaving New York are the people that can't afford housing prices. "The report also found that affluent residents who left New York did not appear to have been driven away by recent tax increases." https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/05/nyregion/nyc-working-class-tax-rich.html @rysiek @hq1 @wikiyu It's very popular to promote "taxing the rich", it's been done numerous times throughout the history. It sounds as a no-brainer, but more often than not, such efforts result in spending much time and energy to achieve nothing useful at best. Usually it results in higher taxes for the middle class with not much benefit for those in need. That's what half a century taught me, but I encourage everybody to study similar efforts and their effects before pushing such initiatives.  Maybe he is rich himself and he wants to demotivate people to sign for this European 'Tax The Rich' initiative.  @hq1 @rysiek @wikiyu They sure will, but it will be less convenient. And then the next policy comes around. It's a race and you can only win if you start. There is also an amount of rich people who will rather pay the tax than finding another loophole. Sure they won't be happy about it, and that's already something. @sheogorath here's yet another way of looking at it, stolen from I think David Graeber: At some level of wealth it becomes completely abstract. Zero here, zero there make no *real* difference. The only difference that matters at that level is a financial dick measuring contest: who has more, who has less? Who is first on list of the wealthiest people on the planet? If everyone of these billionaires is taxed the same, this does not re-order that ladder.  @hq1: I see something else in that. European market is for them really important like practically any-in-the-world market. Taxing them here may drive them off Europe, and I won’t deny that - but there’s a chance rich will lose their source of income being the Europe. |
@hq1 no no, you are actually being quite cynical about it.
That's exactly the kind of nihilism that the Bezoses, Musks, Zuckerbergs, and Gates of this world hope to get people to espouse — and it's scary how effective it is.
Here's the thing: any such issue is very complex. There are always several things that need to happen to "fix" them.
So, if you react like this to any single attempt — "this can't work, as there are other issues to solve first" — then nothing ever gets fixed.
@wikiyu