 If you are a citizen of any EU Member State, I implore you to consider signing the Tax-the-Rich citizens' initiative: The idea is to tax the super rich and then use the money for climate transition. :blobcathappypaws: This is an official EU citizens' initiative, meaning that if it reaches certain thresholds, it *will have to be* considered by the EU institutions. That's a really powerful tool, if actually used. So we should use it. :blobcatcool: 🧵⬇️ 143 comments
@rysiek  @rysiek przeczytałem tekst propozycji, no i nie widzę co rozumieją przez "large-scale wealth". Bo to się wszystko fajnie zaczyna, ale ostatecznie ci naprawdę bogaci się wywiną, a potem media jęczą, ze podatek dotyka klasę średnią. @rdrozd to nie jest propozycja tekstu dyrektywy, to jest propozycja pomysłu rozwiązania. Takie (bez wątpienia ważne!) kwestie są do ustalenia w samym procesie legislacyjnym, o ile do niego dojdzie. Jednocześnie trwają przecież odrębne prace nad walką z unikaniem opodatkowania. Nie wszystko naraz. Krok po kroku. Dla mnie fakt, że jednym z inicjatorów jest Piketty jest dość dobrym powodem, by tej inicjatywie zaufać.  @rysiek@mstdn.social I'm minor and scared of giving id :neocat_floof_sad: @hq1 no no, you are actually being quite cynical about it. That's exactly the kind of nihilism that the Bezoses, Musks, Zuckerbergs, and Gates of this world hope to get people to espouse — and it's scary how effective it is. Here's the thing: any such issue is very complex. There are always several things that need to happen to "fix" them. So, if you react like this to any single attempt — "this can't work, as there are other issues to solve first" — then nothing ever gets fixed. @hq1 what *always* dumbfounds me with such responses as yours is this, though: Okay, let's say you're right. Let's say that this has no way of fixing anything what-so-ever. That it will have no effect at all. Here's my question: why spend the time discouraging people from doing it, then? Like, if you truly believe in what you said, there is no point in such discouragement. It's inevitable it won't work. Why the urge to make such a comment? It strikes me as a definition of pointless. no but you’re saying that if enough people sign (which I’m happy to, don’t get me wrong, what else can I do?) the parliament will look into it. Then some legislation has to happen. And then the rich will pay taxes that will help fix the climate crisis/debt? Is that what you’re saying? I’m not discouraging anyone, I truly hope the probability of succeeding is greater than zero my man @hq1 I am saying that this is as good an attempt as any. Maybe it will work. It only costs a signature. The point of this initiative is that a new tax is imposed on the super wealthy, and that tax is then earmarked for fighting climate crisis. I like that construction. Obviously it's a long way to an actual legislation, but one has to start somewhere. A lot of money is spent on convincing people that wealth taxes don't work because the wealthy can escape to another state. And then when wealth taxes are implemented they prove to work, because moving has a significant cost, and if your wealth is built on local networks of power, which it frequently is, moving also destroys wealth. Curious to learn about any examples. Can you cite some? Again, not trying to be cynical/sarcastic > And then when wealth taxes are implemented they prove to work (…) I meant that specifically, you made it sound like it has happened somewhere in the world? Genuinely no idea. I share the wishful thinking, if that’s what it is. @hq1 90% top tax rate in the USA before 1964 or so. That's one of the things that helped end the Great Depression and create the post-war prosperity. @hq1 @Leszek_Karlik @rysiek @wikiyu New York decided to increase taxes on the most wealthy, the only people leaving New York are the people that can't afford housing prices. "The report also found that affluent residents who left New York did not appear to have been driven away by recent tax increases." https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/05/nyregion/nyc-working-class-tax-rich.html @rysiek @hq1 @wikiyu It's very popular to promote "taxing the rich", it's been done numerous times throughout the history. It sounds as a no-brainer, but more often than not, such efforts result in spending much time and energy to achieve nothing useful at best. Usually it results in higher taxes for the middle class with not much benefit for those in need. That's what half a century taught me, but I encourage everybody to study similar efforts and their effects before pushing such initiatives.  Maybe he is rich himself and he wants to demotivate people to sign for this European 'Tax The Rich' initiative.  @hq1 @rysiek @wikiyu They sure will, but it will be less convenient. And then the next policy comes around. It's a race and you can only win if you start. There is also an amount of rich people who will rather pay the tax than finding another loophole. Sure they won't be happy about it, and that's already something. @sheogorath here's yet another way of looking at it, stolen from I think David Graeber: At some level of wealth it becomes completely abstract. Zero here, zero there make no *real* difference. The only difference that matters at that level is a financial dick measuring contest: who has more, who has less? Who is first on list of the wealthiest people on the planet? If everyone of these billionaires is taxed the same, this does not re-order that ladder.  @hq1: I see something else in that. European market is for them really important like practically any-in-the-world market. Taxing them here may drive them off Europe, and I won’t deny that - but there’s a chance rich will lose their source of income being the Europe. Yes, it's a JS-heavy website with a webdesign that makes my eyes hurt. Sigh, can't have nice things, can we? You can skip right to the signing by going to the relevant Citizens' Initiatives website on europa.eu here: Both sites seem to work fine in a Tor Browser, and the signing requires solving a self-hosted captcha (no Big Tech captcha involved, it seems), so at least that's good.  @rysiek I’ve signed it! Yeah, the site is ugly. But the standard EC sites look far worse. On the upside, there’s not a single ad to be seen. > It could never work, because the rich can move / have already moved their wealth elsewhere. Any such issue is very complex. There are always several things that need to happen to "fix" them. So, if you react like this to any single attempt — "this can't work, as there are other issues to solve first" — then nothing ever gets fixed. That's basically nihilism. You do you, but if you are so certain it can't work, why even bother commenting on this at all? 🤔 @paco 💯 It is perfectly reasonable to say "not that" even if one does not have a good solution. But that has to be related to some specific bad outcome. Saying "not that, just because I don't think it would work, but no I have no specific bad outcome I am concerned with, and no I have no alternative" is what gets me. Esp. when it's delivered in an authoritative tone of "this will never work." Again, if "this will never work", why even bother opposing it? Just sit back and enjoy being right! @paco sure. But in most cases there is already a status quo, which is what people tend to mean when they say "not that". As in the situation is not great, someone proposes something and the reply is no that seems bad, I'd rather keep what we have even if I think it is still not great. Ofcourse it would be even better if they did offer a valuable suggestion, but we can't all have ideas for everything and sometimes it is valid to just say no I do not want that  @rysiek Most countries tax their residents even if that wealth is outside the country. German tax authorities, for example, have been known to purchase evidence related to the Panama Papers release for the specific purpose of being able to levy taxes on people who live in Germany but tried to hide their wealth and income in an offshore site. > Who exactly would get taxed and to what extent? What would be considered "excess wealth"? Fair question, not clearly answered. But this is a very early step in a potential legislative process. This question would get hammered out throughout that process, if it gets in. It's not like we're voting on specific terms here. Merely saying: "yeah that sounds like something we should spend some EU time figuring out properly." So, that sounds reasonable to me. Plus, Thomas Pikkety is involved. 👀 @504DR I did not suggest measuring how much the zillionaire "donated", but how much the wealth of the people around them arose. And, obviously, if a zillionaire is motivated to raise the wealth of a bunch of random people, the poorest people are the ones cheapest to enwealthen.  Again, from an American perspective - good luck finding an altruistic zillionaire like that. Maybe it's different across the pond. 🤷 @rysiek There website has this question in the faq. :) It depends per country, as an example they state: "..In Belgium, for example, we propose that anyone with 1.25 million euros in assets in addition to their main home and business assets should qualify as "ultra-rich". Sounds like a good starter.  @rysiek not true, the definition is quite clear. The example for Belgium: you would be taxable if you have, NOT counting your house and any assets committed to your business, over 1.25 million euro. @alberto_cottica I cannot find this anywhere on the website. What am I missing? Nevermind, found it, the FAQ.  @rysiek I would also reply to "the rich can just move elsewhere!" Governments know this, and have an incentive to act collectively. Slowly but surely, they are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_minimum_corporate_tax_rate @jhwgh1968 what I love about this is that this is basically governments doing collective bargaining with the capitalist class. :blobcatlaugh: @rysiek while I see it more like an "18th century law of the sea" or "universal jurisdiction for tax evasion", that is absolutely true  The problem of mobile anti-democracy money is being addressed by Biden's rapid approvals of tax treaties. There are fewer and fewer places for the rich to hide their money and evade taxation, as a result. Europe could do the same. Support a global minimum tax. @rysiek We in the UK don't tax the rich. We make them Prime Minister, and then ex-Prime Ministers wonder aloud on live television at their "huge brain" . @rysiek i don't want rich people to be extra taxed for the so called climate projects which are in fact their fake activity to rule the masses. So many parasites feed on them and in fact support evil rich moguls to turn masses i to slavery.  @rysiek PROBLEMS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgVXBEeD6pQ EV's being - a solution of sorts.. imho @rysiek hello! This is an interesting initiative, but I'm wondering if there's any more information on how they plan to determine the "ultra-rich". The only thing I could find on the website is that they plan on determining it based on each country's economic context - in Belgium they would consider anyone with 1.25 million in assets ultra-rich. Did I miss more info anywhere? To me this would be critical info to know the exact formula, and how progressive the tax would be. @jcachada this is a fair question; one that I have not found a clear answer to as well. But the way I see it, this is an extremely early step in a potential legislative process. This issue will be hammered out throughout that process, if it ever actually gets the required support. It's not like we're voting on a specific terms here. Just saying "yeah that sounds like something we should spend some EU time figuring out properly." So, that sounds reasonable to me. That, and Pikkety is involved. @rysiek That's a fair answer. The biggest concern I have would be if this hammers the upper middle class and is not aggressive enough on the real ultra rich. Someone with 1.25 million in assets in Belgium and a billionaire are not remotely in the same league - I would want the "progressive" aspect to be very aggressive. Agree those are particulars though, and those discussions can't be had without starting somewhere. This is probably as good a starting point as any. Beats inertia at least 👍 @Rusty I wish that kind of stuff was not a factor. Fuck borders. But here we are.  It's very doubtful anything will come out of that initiative, but I signed it nonetheless. Thanks! @rysiek it'll end the only possible way: they will emigrate to where taxes are lower. it's happening right now in California. https://www.bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Kalifornijski-exodus-trwa-Powodem-za-wysokie-podatki-8675441.html  @rysiek let's totally do that! :blobcatcool:  @rysiek @rysiek @rysiek For all those people saying "the rich will just move if you tax them" this amazing video explains why that is false:  @rysiek If I was in the EU I would be signing this! I think this is the best idea I've seen for a while! @rysiek Hi, this morning I shared your posting here and did post it on X and bluesky with very good feedback and of course I signed it myself. But strange enough: On the related EU initiative details site ( https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2023/000006_en ) the number of signatures (‚Statements of support’ / Germany) has NOT changed since this morning… 🤔 @rysiek I think we should also tax more on the corporations more since it's a way billionaires can avoid high personal income tax; and also start to properly fine those corporations for the wrongs they has done for some percentage of their revenue each year. Every year they don't comply, extend the fine to another few years. :blobcatcool:  @rysiek  Tax the heirs. If someone inherits more than he/she needs for being of average wealth for the rest of their life expectancy (including their wealth already amassed) then tax all that exceeds it with 50%, payable with at least 5% during the oncoming 10 years plus interest.  @Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 Seems funds from taxing the rich would be at least equally well invested into education, after all that could fundamentally support any changes we've to make to live a sustaining life with the planet.
@rysiek jesus its been ages since i've seen one of these in the wild @rysiek And now, if I'm allowed to be more cynic and sceptic - this initiative is pioneered by the head of our Belgian Socialist party. We have elections coming up soon and they have been pushing this initiative quite hard. With how unlikely the initiative's success is, it really gives me vibes of a political stunt. But then again, whether or not my vote goes to them depends mostly on how well the initiative does (and on a secondary note - on how much the greens push the state reforms).  @rysiek unfortunately this is difficult to do in the EU framework as taxes is one of those things that member states have full sovereignty over. Hope it does happen though! |
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first, a Facebook tracker on a site telling to tax the rich
second, site doesn't work with NoScript