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Dr. Quadragon ❌

I love Internet, but the state of things on the Web is not very promising, to be honest:

- people don't pay for stuff with money
- there's no free lunch, stuff has to come from somewhere
- software devs and service providers have to resort to ads to get money to keep the lights on
- ad industry devours software and services alive

Mozilla/Facebook deal is not THE disease, it's a symptom.

40 comments
DELETED

@drq If you are implying (which you probably don't) that we must pay for every site we visit, it's gonna crash and burn real fast :blobcatderpy:

DELETED

@drq Irrelevant. I have PLENTY of time and skills to mitigate most of the thing, but I don't have real cash to give away.

Dr. Quadragon ❌

@tennoseremel You do. Everyone doesn't.

I'm not saying that you are specifically to blame, it's a systemic problem we're all complacent to because of everyone's self-interest. Kinda like climate change or pollution. Case to case, we make our own life a significantly easier, while simultaneously making everyone's a little bit worse.

And that adds up over time, and in the end we end up with a disaster which we don't really know what to do with.

DELETED

@drq What do you mean I do? I'm pretty sure I know my finances more than you. Unless you read my message wrong here.

DELETED

@drq So, how are you expecting everyone to pay up? Even 1 cent per page adds up really fast. Especially if your income is low. Do you say that the Internet is only for those who can afford to pay up that much? I don't agree with that.

Dr. Quadragon ❌

@tennoseremel I'm not "expecting" anything. I'm just saying how exactly is everything going to hell.

Dr. Quadragon ❌

@tennoseremel And yes, I know nobody from the user's side has any money. That's the key issue. That's what I'm saying.

DELETED

@drq But you are saying they must pay.

Dr. Quadragon ❌ replied to DELETED

@tennoseremel Yes, and they don't, because they either don't want or can't. So... Ads.

DELETED replied to Dr. Quadragon ❌

@drq What exactly do you want people to do? Because paying for everything you visit is mathematically impossible for the most of the population.

Dr. Quadragon ❌ replied to DELETED

@tennoseremel This is exactly what I'm saying.
I? I don't "expect" or "want" anything (well, except for people to eat the rich maybe). I'm just showing you how the Internet collapses under economic pressures.

DELETED replied to Dr. Quadragon ❌

@drq It didn't yet. Maybe some things want to be too big for their own good :blobcatthinking:

Dr. Quadragon ❌ replied to DELETED

@tennoseremel They certainly do. And some certainly are too big for their own good. At which point they start farming and eating people. Not literally, but their data.

DELETED replied to Dr. Quadragon ❌

@drq Data mining people is a problem, I agree here.

Dr. Quadragon ❌ replied to DELETED

@tennoseremel That's the business model of ""free""

DELETED replied to Dr. Quadragon ❌

@drq Not really. At least not everywhere and you don't really *have to* datamine people to show ads, if you go with ads. Simply show ads which are relevant to the site/article in question.

Dr. Quadragon ❌ replied to DELETED

@tennoseremel The less data you mine - the less money you get. The worse off you are as a service provider.

It's catch-22.

DELETED replied to Dr. Quadragon ❌

@drq TBH, datamined ads rarely suggest anything useful. Can't speak for everyone here, though. In any case, you don't need to earn all the money that exists, but just enough to continue doing whatever you do.

Dr. Quadragon ❌ replied to DELETED

@tennoseremel At this point usefulness of the ad to you as an individual user may not really be relevant.

And you rarely can "just" continue doing whatever you do, the prices grow, the complexity of what you do rises over time, even if you're just a news site, for example.

Also, the line between "user data mining ads" and "content relevant ads" blurs significantly if the content in your service is user-centric, doesn't it.

There's no easy answers here. There's no disco solution. It wouldn't be much of a problem if there were, would it.

@tennoseremel At this point usefulness of the ad to you as an individual user may not really be relevant.

And you rarely can "just" continue doing whatever you do, the prices grow, the complexity of what you do rises over time, even if you're just a news site, for example.

Also, the line between "user data mining ads" and "content relevant ads" blurs significantly if the content in your service is user-centric, doesn't it.

Александр replied to Dr. Quadragon ❌
@drq @tennoseremel
"the complexity of what you do rises over time"

Maybe it shouldn't :) It works for some other things. E.g. bread gets sold just as it is just fine. Same can work for news site.
DELETED

@drq Yeah, because only rich people with access to the Internet is certainly a much better society[!]

Александр
@drq @tennoseremel There is also charity.

Our problem is that everyone sees the Internet as the source of income. This kind of paradigm of course means everyone is supposed to pay and as much as you can make them.

It wasn't always the case.
Dr. Quadragon ❌

@tennoseremel And besides, aside from the fact that the ads are becoming ever harder to mitigate, if you DO mitigate them, and everyone does, the advertiser stops paying to the service provider. Because why should they? They're not making any profit, because nobody watches ads, and that's what they're after.

DELETED

@drq How exactly is this my problem? If you want your website up – do something about it. You can even paywall it if you want. That's on you, not on me.

Dr. Quadragon ❌

@tennoseremel Your problem is that you're using the site, aren't you.

DELETED

@drq Nope. You made it available, I use it. If you close it, I move elsewhere. If there is nowhere to go, it's just the same thing as me not having access to the Internet. But I'm already there if I have to pay for everything.

Dr. Quadragon ❌

@tennoseremel Multiply that "I" by the number of the Internet users, and you'll see the point of what I'm saying.

The problem lies not with you as an individual.

DELETED

@drq I don't get your point, TBH. You need to rephrase it, maybe.

Dr. Quadragon ❌

@uu Just not with money, and not to the site owner, yes.

@tennoseremel

2u

@drq
The Internet is fine. The people are fucked!

Dr. Quadragon ❌

@uu The Internet is made for and by people. The Internet without people is not Internet, it's just collection of hardware that does nothing.

hacknorris

@drq what if there is someone underaged (means - under 18, legally on site, over 16). and payments online are only 18+ . what to do then ? 😁

hacknorris

@drq means - theoretically its possible but everyone'd need to switch from wifi to bluetooth and build web browser for bluetooth (pages available only when someone's pc is available) i even was thinking about making it wider but it'll require me some time to calculate all the things (EU compliant if about safety/bhp , how big'd be etc etc).

Tirifto

@hacknorris @drq I think the right solution to this specific problem is not having payments online 18+ only.

Александр
@drq Oh, come on. Ads are not the problem. Paid access is not the problem. It all existed before. Magazines and other press, entertainment, various facilities like parks and toilets... It can be free, it can be paid, it can be sponsored.

The fucking problem we have is how ads and data mining got out of hand. I have no problem with ads themselves - but not tracking ads. I have no problem if some website (or real life facility) asks me to register - but please don't fucking fingerprint and track me without my knowledge and consent. It is like having hidden cameras installed everywhere. I have no problem if some service costs money - I might buy it or not but please make the deal clear and upfront. No hidden fees, etc.

Imagine all of this is effectively banned. No more tracking ads, no more profiling, no more data brokering. It just doesn't exist anymore. Will the Internet fall apart? No, it will not. It will be more like what we had twenty years ago. Maybe Facebook will become premium service. Maybe Cloudflare won't be free anymore. Maybe you won't be able to get TERABYTES of storage, unlimited videoconferencing and shit for free.

But the Internet will be there. And it will be nice enough.
@drq Oh, come on. Ads are not the problem. Paid access is not the problem. It all existed before. Magazines and other press, entertainment, various facilities like parks and toilets... It can be free, it can be paid, it can be sponsored.

Hypolite Petovan
I beg to slightly differ, people pay online stuff with money, see Patreon and Twitch subscriptions. However they are discriminate in what they’re paying for. The reality is that we’re churning out more content than what people are ready to pay for. On the other side, marketing departments are showered with money because it’s hard to link campaigns with actual results, so there’s an arms race between companies. So there’s a natural fit between content creators starving for money and moneyed marketing dept. starving for content.
I beg to slightly differ, people pay online stuff with money, see Patreon and Twitch subscriptions. However they are discriminate in what they’re paying for. The reality is that we’re churning out more content than what people are ready to pay for. On the other side, marketing departments are showered with money because it’s hard to link campaigns with actual results, so there’s an arms race between companies. So there’s a natural fit between content creators starving for money and moneyed marketing...
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