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Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@JessTheUnstill I can absolutely understand where you are coming from and in some cases i completely agree with this.

But there are also times when people are speaking about issues that pertain to amab trans folks and a term is needed to distinguish between someone afab and amab.

It really depends on how it's used and in what context.

Even other transwomen use the term when describing themselves or others who are members of the community. I can't really tell all cis folks that it's a bad word and doesn't have its use cases that aren't mean to be discriminatory.

I mean, how else would i have conducted my poll?

infosec.exchange/@Anya_Adora/1

12 Jul 2023 at 0:02 | Wall-to-wall | Open on infosec.exchange
23 comments
TurboQuokka

@Anya_Adora @JessTheUnstill It’s not the terms trans woman or trans man that are the problem — it’s when they’re purposely joined together as one word (ie “transwoman” or “transman”) that is the issue. Those compound words were designed to other us as something other than “real” men or women, and were primarily used by TERFs until they just kinda leaked into common usage (much to the dismay of a hell of a lot of us who have been trying to point this out for years.)

12 Jul 2023 at 0:16 | Open on kolektiva.social
Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@turboquokka @JessTheUnstill ??? Really?

Because to me it seems obvious that it's more of the term regardless how it's separated or not.

Some people dislike it either way because they are focused on passing and it might be dysphoria inducing.

Others are binary post-transition and don't want to acknowledge they are trans under any circumstance as well, that's a small portion but i've come across that in my nearly 2 decades of being out as trans.

I'm not going to jump a trans person or cis person's shit if they are using it either way to ask a question respectfully or describe us in the context of someone being trans.

Personally i can understand how this can be problematic but i fail to see how separating the words or not solves the problem.

There are still going to be trans folks that want to be referred to as nothing other than male or female and reject any wording that labels them as trans at all.

@turboquokka @JessTheUnstill ??? Really?

Because to me it seems obvious that it's more of the term regardless how it's separated or not.

Some people dislike it either way because they are focused on passing and it might be dysphoria inducing.

Others are binary post-transition and don't want to acknowledge they are trans under any circumstance as well, that's a small portion but i've come across that in my nearly 2 decades of being out as trans.

12 Jul 2023 at 0:20 | Open on infosec.exchange
Jess👾

As I said in the original post:

You don't call someone a blondewoman, you say blonde woman. Because blonde is an adjective that describes the noun, woman.

You don't call someone transwoman, you call her a trans woman. Because trans is an adjective that describes the noun, woman.

Calling someone transwoman is indicating that a transwoman is a different noun entirely.

More to the point, while allies and even trans people may use both trans woman and transwoman, depending, notice ALL TERFs say transwoman. They never say trans woman.

@Anya_Adora
@turboquokka

As I said in the original post:

You don't call someone a blondewoman, you say blonde woman. Because blonde is an adjective that describes the noun, woman.

You don't call someone transwoman, you call her a trans woman. Because trans is an adjective that describes the noun, woman.

Calling someone transwoman is indicating that a transwoman is a different noun entirely.

12 Jul 2023 at 0:51 | Open on infosec.exchange
Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@JessTheUnstill @turboquokka So if i'm clear then:

It's ok for trans and cis folks to use transwoman or trans woman then.

TERFS only use transwoman.

And cis and trans folks are again wrong because it makes it a different noun because TERFS use it?

This makes zero sense and seems confusing for not only cis folks, but other trans folks, myself included.

I mean, we're under attack fighting for medical care, basic rights and inclusion in society.

Last thing i want to do is be confusing cis folks who are allies or may become one because they didn't use the right word not knowing how you feel which is still unclear from this.

I'm not trying to be an ass but i really don't get it.

@JessTheUnstill @turboquokka So if i'm clear then:

It's ok for trans and cis folks to use transwoman or trans woman then.

TERFS only use transwoman.

And cis and trans folks are again wrong because it makes it a different noun because TERFS use it?

This makes zero sense and seems confusing for not only cis folks, but other trans folks, myself included.

12 Jul 2023 at 0:55 | Open on infosec.exchange
TurboQuokka

@Anya_Adora @JessTheUnstill Nobody should be using “transwoman” or “transman” on purpose — those combination words come from TERFs as a way to other us. The correct way to write them would be “trans woman” or “trans man” (ie as two separate words.)

12 Jul 2023 at 1:21 | Open on kolektiva.social
Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@turboquokka @JessTheUnstill OP says 'allies and even trans people may use both trans woman and transwoman'

So apparently you are wrong according to this logic.

12 Jul 2023 at 1:22 | Open on infosec.exchange
Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@turboquokka @JessTheUnstill Tbh this all makes me think this entire discussion just makes us look bad.

We want and need allies and acceptance and all of this just works against that.

I'm not down with whatever this is.

Feel free to carry on and confuse cis and other trans folks who are allies or may become one.

Feel free to push them away with this lack of logic and calling them out as wrong while admitting they aren't wrong.

12 Jul 2023 at 1:28 | Open on infosec.exchange
Jess👾

I'm not having this fight with you anymore. You are free to do and say whatever you like. Have a good evening.

@Anya_Adora
@turboquokka

12 Jul 2023 at 2:00 | Open on infosec.exchange
Morgan

@Anya_Adora saying something happens is not the same as endorsing it. Allies and even trans people sometimes say transphobic things on accident. So it's good to educate on why it's transphobic.
Trans women are women. If you're not trying to argue otherwise, perhaps you chose the wrong hill to die on.

12 Jul 2023 at 2:39 | Open on disabled.social
Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@raphaelmorgan Some trans women are trans women, other trans women are women 11 months out of the year until Pride Month comes along.

Some trans women are proud to be trans and want that to be made known any time of the year.

Other trans women are binary and passing and never want anyone to know they are trans and are extremely upset by being known as trans and reject being around other trans women who don't pass, they don't want to get 'clocked' as the community calls it.

I'll die on this hill, being 110% real with you in response to your comment.

@raphaelmorgan Some trans women are trans women, other trans women are women 11 months out of the year until Pride Month comes along.

Some trans women are proud to be trans and want that to be made known any time of the year.

Other trans women are binary and passing and never want anyone to know they are trans and are extremely upset by being known as trans and reject being around other trans women who don't pass, they don't want to get 'clocked' as the community calls it.

12 Jul 2023 at 4:47 | Open on infosec.exchange
Morgan

@Anya_Adora are you saying that wanting to be known as trans disqualifies someone from being a woman? Here, let me break it down for you:
* someone who is a woman but doesn't mind people knowing she is not cis = a woman
* someone who is a woman and wants people to think she's cis even though she's not = a woman
* someone who is a woman and is also cis = a woman
No one here is saying to out people or to shove people in a closet. Just, if someone says she's a woman she is.

12 Jul 2023 at 4:50 | Open on disabled.social
Morgan replied to Morgan

@Anya_Adora if by "women 11 months out of the year until pride month comes along" you mean "don't tell people they're trans except for pride month but tell people they're women," those women are still women during pride month... if you mean people who detransition for pride month or AFAB trans people who detransition for the rest of the year, idk how they're relevant to this conversation

12 Jul 2023 at 4:53 | Open on disabled.social
brielle bouquet 💐

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan allies dont use transwoman. if someone is using transwoman they're not educated enough to functionally support us even if they mean well. trans people can use transwoman if they want in the same way i can reclaim the f-slur if i choose, but it categorically does cause harm.

transwoman is absolutely dehumanizing and harmful tho and it's easy to get muddled and confused about it (see: this discussion) which is part of its power. it dehumanizes us in a subtle way. so subtle that even trans people sometimes gloss over or miss its intended (bigoted) function

anya i really think you're missing something here. i cant explain is better than jess but it feels like maybe a re-reading is warranted?

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan allies dont use transwoman. if someone is using transwoman they're not educated enough to functionally support us even if they mean well. trans people can use transwoman if they want in the same way i can reclaim the f-slur if i choose, but it categorically does cause harm.

12 Jul 2023 at 4:56 | Open on queer.party
Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor: replied to brielle bouquet 💐

@briellebouquet @raphaelmorgan I think you all care too much about what terms TERFS use and are too soft when it comes to this. If this really harms your mental state and degrades you as a person, feel free to tell the world and all cis people.

Personally i think it's doing nothing but pushing people away, but maybe that's the point of all of this.

If the world doesn't do everything you want that's a problem.

Sorry but being a trans person who lost their career over being trans, came out before civil rights, was homeless for 6 years... all because i'm trans...

I'm a fuck of a lot stronger than this nonsense and i refuse to care about this conversation anymore.

I'm not soft. I'm real.

@briellebouquet @raphaelmorgan I think you all care too much about what terms TERFS use and are too soft when it comes to this. If this really harms your mental state and degrades you as a person, feel free to tell the world and all cis people.

Personally i think it's doing nothing but pushing people away, but maybe that's the point of all of this.

12 Jul 2023 at 5:02 | Open on infosec.exchange
brielle bouquet 💐 replied to Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan bigots dont get to define us or label us. it's a worthwhile fight. they use it as a slur to harass us.

yes there are other pressing issues facing trans people. but denying that dehumanizing slurs are a problem absolutely confuses me.

the other stuff you said? noone is implying that you're soft or that you dont have official transfemme credentials. only that 'transwoman' is a slur used against us by hate groups, and that it's bad, and that fighting labels bigots slap on us ti hurt us is in fact worthwhile

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan bigots dont get to define us or label us. it's a worthwhile fight. they use it as a slur to harass us.

yes there are other pressing issues facing trans people. but denying that dehumanizing slurs are a problem absolutely confuses me.

the other stuff you said? noone is implying that you're soft or that you dont have official transfemme credentials. only that 'transwoman' is a slur used against us by hate groups, and that it's bad, and that fighting labels bigots slap on...

12 Jul 2023 at 5:07 | Open on queer.party
Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor: replied to brielle bouquet 💐

@briellebouquet @raphaelmorgan Some trans fems use the word 'Tranny' to describe themselves, even here, openly, in jest.

If you want to continue this then tell me how that's ok and not having a space between two words is somehow the end of the world for us.

Because apparently some folks think i'm a bigot for not caring about the space which was made clear in this thread.

Let's move on to a real slur.

12 Jul 2023 at 5:10 | Open on infosec.exchange
Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor: replied to Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@briellebouquet @raphaelmorgan Also, let me make this very clear.

None of you or any trans person anywhere gets to decide my 'credentials' as a trans person.

Ever.

12 Jul 2023 at 5:13 | Open on infosec.exchange
Morgan replied to Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@Anya_Adora @briellebouquet she was literally saying that we weren't trying to do that... are you just the type of person who scans posts for a few words that you can take out of context so that you can attack other trans people? Please untag me from future conversation because I am *done* with that sort of behavior along with the bootlicking

12 Jul 2023 at 5:16 | Open on disabled.social
brielle bouquet 💐 replied to Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor:

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan well fuck you, i tried. ive been harassed in floods by people sneeringly dehumanizing me with it and you're going to call me soft and act like that's nothing. it isnt. and thats fucking insulting of you to say it is. repeatedly.

i didnt for one second question your trans credentials. only why you pulled them out in a discussion where a) i didnt doubt them or call them into question and b) where they werent relevant to the discussion

i specifically said trans women can reclaim the slur. but that there are consequences to doing so for those who see what it is and where it comes from.

you're ignoring 3/4 of the shit you're replying to and youve been rude from the beginning. goodbye.

edit: i muted you, dont reply

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan well fuck you, i tried. ive been harassed in floods by people sneeringly dehumanizing me with it and you're going to call me soft and act like that's nothing. it isnt. and thats fucking insulting of you to say it is. repeatedly.

i didnt for one second question your trans credentials. only why you pulled them out in a discussion where a) i didnt doubt them or call them into question and b) where they werent relevant to the discussion

12 Jul 2023 at 5:17 | Open on queer.party
brielle bouquet 💐 replied to brielle bouquet 💐

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan more importantly, accepting compromise on our right to label ourselves because we dont want to push cis people away feels cowardly and adjacent to cis gays who join the LGB alliance bc they think trans people make gay rights harder to sell to cishets.

we are who we are. im not trying to buy acceptance from the cishets by compromising who i am or how im seen for public relations. i want respect and i want my womanhood recognized, now.

12 Jul 2023 at 5:13 | Open on queer.party
Anya Adora :verified_trans:​ :donor: replied to brielle bouquet 💐

@briellebouquet @raphaelmorgan That's fine, feel however you wish.

I just wish you could understand that your womanhood isn't defined by them.

You are obviously their slave because a space between two words or not matters so much it can destroy your dignity.

To me that's problematic and i refuse to let others decide who i am or what i am.

But you all do you and fight the world over a space between words to maintain your dignity.

12 Jul 2023 at 5:17 | Open on infosec.exchange
DELETED

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan

(1/2) While this sort of construction is rather klonky in my native language, I understand the reasoning behind using trans as an adjective in English to differentiate between “a special category of woman (or man)” and “a woman (or man) who just so happens to also be trans”.

I just don’t see how it’s a TERF or transphobe invention, although I can see why they’d use it. (Actually… I see them using “TIM”, for ”trans-identified male”, to hammer the point home.)

When I first explored the matter on the ’net and in English, 1) “transsexual” was still the word to use, 2) “crossdressers” and “transvestites” were mentioned a lot, and in the same context, 3) “transgender” was either an unspecific umbrella term or used somewhat like “nonbinary” or “genderqueer” today, (…to be continued…)

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan

(1/2) While this sort of construction is rather klonky in my native language, I understand the reasoning behind using trans as an adjective in English to differentiate between “a special category of woman (or man)” and “a woman (or man) who just so happens to also be trans”.

12 Jul 2023 at 5:44 | Open on linuxrocks.online
DELETED replied to DELETED

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan
(2/2) 4) “genetic girl” and “biological woman” were common parlance among trans people, 5) if there was any controversy about “transwoman”, it had not quite reached the hoi polloi yet, 6) gender tests were around to test your femininity or rank your transness, and they *didn’t* just ask “So… what are you?”.

That was trans people as I first witnessed them online, *not* our enemies.

Yet a lot of that probably seems transphobic now. The expected mindset has changed since then.

Personally… I usually remember to use “trans women” to refer to others, because I can see they’re sensitive to the distinction.

As for me, I do feel like a separate sort of woman, a “transwoman”. So much makes me different from what “woman” means to people at large and in the sex-system nature cooked up… so much I can’t change. (And it *is* about changing, for me, not about remaining the way I am.)

I’ve not fully arrived in the present with the way I think about these things.

@Anya_Adora @raphaelmorgan
(2/2) 4) “genetic girl” and “biological woman” were common parlance among trans people, 5) if there was any controversy about “transwoman”, it had not quite reached the hoi polloi yet, 6) gender tests were around to test your femininity or rank your transness, and they *didn’t* just ask “So… what are you?”.

12 Jul 2023 at 5:47 | Open on linuxrocks.online
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