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Matt Cengia

stop using discord for your open-source communities

[EDIT: Check out my follow-up: aus.social/@mattcen/1106577856 ]

96 comments
Elias Mårtenson

@mattcen New game challenge: Stop using Discord for documentation. Level: Impossible.

dragfyre

@mattcen there's seriously not much excuse anymore, is there

Thaiis Thei 𓁟

@mattcen Stop using Google docs for your open stuff.

EFA I'm looking at you.

Lists of academics by discipline on Mastodon I'm looking at you.

Matt Cengia

I get that when you're working on stuff and not getting paid for it, it can make sense to seek the platforms with the lowest friction and barriers to entry, but between IRC, #Matrix (and by extension, Gitter), and #XMPP, there are plenty of options that don't include vendor lock-in.

Paul Bone

@mattcen I really think that Discord is one of the easiest platforms to use and choose it for my open source stuff.

I'm not worried about vendor lock-in because chat is ephemeral. I don't store documentation & code there it's just a way for people to get in touch. If it's a problem I can move elsewhere.

I also use IRC because I like IRC, but I understand that people find IRC difficult.

Matt Cengia

@pbone Honestly, one of my biggest frustrations with Discord is their UI. It seems every time I open it it's trying to advertise some "fun" new feature targetting people using the platform for gaming or recreation, and I Just. Don't. Care. I just need to be able to interact with whatever community has roped me into using it, and don't want all this extra noise.

Paul Bone

@mattcen That's one of my criticisms also, and the "fun chat features" that go with it like the attention grabbing animated things and why does everyone need their own colour?

OTOH I still find it easier to use (my particular a11y needs) than Matrix's Element interface. But now I want to try Revolt, I vaguely remember trying it before.

Matt Cengia

@pbone That's fair too; Element are still refining their UI for usability and accessibility.
I also encourage folks to investigate Matrix *bridges* to their IRC or Discord communities; at least it gives people another option, though I concede they're not 100% reliable yet either.

mounderfod

@mattcen @pbone

To be fair, that was the target audience of Discord to begin with

Matt Cengia

@mounderfod Yes, I understand that, which is why it's frustrating that so many non-gamer communities have adopted it and its UI isn't really catering to those.

Paul Bone

@gnumdk @mattcen Yes. If you're so principled that you only ever use FOSS things then I am concerned that you may hold principals too tightly and miss practical considerations. I want to work with people who can find a balance. Principals are great, they show us what to aim for, what we're working/fighting for. But my video card still works best with a closed binary driver, my hard disk has closed firmware etc...

Paul Bone

@gnumdk @mattcen Actually, I wouldn't say "by design", it's circumstance that I haven't yet found a platform that's suitable and open, and I also wouldn't say that *I* exclude them. They exclude themselves by their choice.

I feel worse that Discord doesn't work well with screen readers. People who need those often aren't choosing based on an ideology, and I would like to include them.

Edward Hervey
@pbone @mattcen the number of times searching for something in mattermost has saved me has made me change my point of view on that.

Having searchable history of "chat systems" is a must-have. And it needs to be open for FOSS projects, else you're losing a massive trove of information and knowledge.
Akseli :quake_verified:

@pbone @mattcen as long as docs arent on discord i personally dont care but i dont think i will contribute either if i have to use a tool that causes sensory overload for me whenever i open it

Lorraine Lee
@mattcen @pbone I paused on that last sentence. People find IRC difficult? Certainly IRC is simpler than Discord. But upon a tiny amount of reflection, I think I see it. If you go with protocols rather than platforms, people have choices, and choice can be difficult. "How do I get on IRC?" is a question with many answers, and perhaps some flame wars between competing answers. Not necessarily the most digestible breakfast.
a goat‽

@pbone @mattcen
> Chat is ephemeral

On Matrix it's as permanent and irrevocable as humanly possible. Great for keeping your data online forever (long as the servers don't die), not great for privacy

Rihards Olups

@pbone @mattcen
Discord does not allow accessing information without registering with them. Even for ephemeral information having it "blackholed" can be painful.
We recently had somebody recommend #Zulip for the local OpenStreetMap community, and it has been pretty great - maybe it works for you as well :)

zulip.com/

Rachel Lawson

@mattcen if the community is asking for a particular platform, it would seem weird to not use it, surely?

Matt Cengia

@rachel_norfolk Perhaps, but I would interrogate *why* that platform is being requested. Is it familiarity? Accessibility or other UX? peer-pressure? Lack of awareness of viable alternatives?
Every platform has its drawbacks and advantages, so it's worth considering who you're excluding by choosing it. And at the risk of splintering the community, consider whether it's worth having multiple platforms (or using a #Matrix bridge between a couple of them)

🇵🇷🏳️‍🌈Ryan🧮🔬👬

@mattcen I was getting ready to type what you said in this response, lol.

Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

@mattcen Is Matrix ok? I heard there were problems with the company that did most of the development for it.

Matt Cengia

@tokyo_0 I personally am a Matrix fan, and think it's generally a good alternative (especially since it can be bridged to so many other platforms).

xananax

@mattcen @mattcen agreed in principle, but that's not how it works in practice.

A discord community *will* exist, and it *will* (probably) be the biggest. That's just where people are.

You don't have a choice of having or not a discord community. Your choice is: do you want it to be unofficial, and not enforce your code of conduct, and have random people represent your software, or do you want to control the culture and quality of responses?

Rev. GothAlice

@mattcen IRC is my preferred. And with a fully-featured client it's barely distinguishable from these "richer" platforms.

Embedded media?
Link previews?
Edting? (s/Edting/Editing/)

Textual says hello.

Multiline paste, use a paste service. Tempted to use a paste service for your actual question?

paste.webcore.io/?My+storage-f.

Daya Kunat

@alice@marrow.haus textual is only available to people who can afford macbooks. All other native IRC clients suck, and I've tried them all, from irssi to hexchat

Bulby

@mattcen note that there as a matrix bridge to discord so you can connect all your channels 😍

Matt Cengia

@bulbyvr I'm aware, but they are occasionally prone to message delivery issues, and require the admin of the Discord server to approve them. Which isn't to say "don't use them"; I'd love of more communities did; just need to be aware of the pitfalls.

Bulby

@mattcen me when the haxe discord bridge takes 5 minutes to synchronize

ani betts

@mattcen That's a great idea but all of these have zero protection against abusive actors, it is trivial to immediately spin up a new account and there is fuck-all you can do about it

Sukant Hajra

@mattcen I can appreciate this sentiment, but these technologies can be hostile to new users, and most importantly beginner programmers.

For these people ergonomics matter. This is why IRC and Matrix drop off quickly as options. Not sure the XXMP clients are that great either.

James Tucker

@mattcen alas, once I moved from android to iOS, I found no usable irc client compatible with my bouncer. I stood up a matrix server and have been using that, but opening element on my phone it takes multiple *minutes* to sync enough to show me notifications it just received. It’s really not ready yet.

Scott Duensing

@mattcen I've tried. Many times. I've run IRC channels, I have a Matrix gateway, I've set up XMPP, RocketChat, Mattermost, even a BBS with a teleconference!

Nobody cares. Nobody uses them. But my Discord? 220+ users (and only one is on the Matrix gateway).

It sucks.

Colin

@mattcen It's OK I communicate with people entirely through YouTube.

Zeeshan Ali Khan :rust:

@jele @mattcen not the same thing. git is distributed at its core. Moving your projects away from GH is not only possible, it's trivial (unless you move issues, labels and PRs too but that's also very much possible through scripts)

Jele

@zeenix
Same level of importance regarding open-everything
@mattcen

Zeeshan Ali Khan :rust:

@jele @mattcen Not sure that was the main message. I understood the main message was not to get your community chat locked in with a company.

Jele

@zeenix
Ah.
I think it is allowed to widen the conversation with an answer 🫢😄
@mattcen

Jele

@zeenix
Don't get your project locked in with MS (that is a bad company)....
No?
I do not get your point 🤷
@mattcen

Zeeshan Ali Khan :rust:

@jele @mattcen As I explained, it's not at all "locked". You can exit anytime and the main part of that exit is super trivial.

Matt Cengia

@zeenix @jele OK, so GitHub has its issues too (proprietary tool, owned by Microsoft), but I'm *less* focussed on that in this particular instance; at least with GitHub, I can see discussion in GitHub issues and obtain code without needing an account. That's not the case with Discord.
As mentioned, there are also plenty of platforms (e.g. Gitea, Forgejo, GitLab etc) that make it trivial to use GitHub's API to import your repo *and* its Issues and PRs. It's not perfect, but at least it's not *quite* as closed as Discord is.

But also, yes, if you can use an open-source software forge, that's great too. The downside of that though, is that people need to currently create accounts on each individual forge to contribute, whereas (for better or worse) GitHub accounts are relatively ubiquitous). Once forges like @forgejo make more progress on federation (forgejo.org/faq/#is-there-a-ro), hopefully this will reduce friction there.

@zeenix @jele OK, so GitHub has its issues too (proprietary tool, owned by Microsoft), but I'm *less* focussed on that in this particular instance; at least with GitHub, I can see discussion in GitHub issues and obtain code without needing an account. That's not the case with Discord.
As mentioned, there are also plenty of platforms (e.g. Gitea, Forgejo, GitLab etc) that make it trivial to use GitHub's API to import your repo *and* its Issues and PRs. It's not perfect, but at least it's not *quite*...

Jele

@mattcen @zeenix @forgejo
Seems like there is always a reason why WhatWeUse ist less bad.
And maybe "open" ist not the same here and there... :-)

Ertain

@mattcen My god, I would love to boost this more. The discorse and talks for an open source project should be out in the open. That means communication channels that are easy to read and search. Discord isn't easy to search. Even when a user _does_ have a Discord account, they need to be a member of the server just to look for anything and talk.

Akseli :quake_verified:

@mattcen also stop using github if you can because we have seen with reddit and twitter etc.. it *will* eventually crash and burn

But i expect people just to call me alarmist over this

mounderfod

@aks @mattcen

Is there a federated GitHub replacement? I know stuff like Gitea is self-hosted, but then we run into the issue of having to have accounts on loads of different instances

Stemy

@mattcen The problem is that the only FOSS remplacement of discord (i don't remember it's name) is not yet mature, and there's no other FOSS software that looks remotely like discord.

silentw

@mattcen
Until someone matches the spend / effort that Discord puts into their user onboarding you will never meaningfully compete with them.

Maybe, if there were OSS/FOSS options out there that spent 1/100th as much time or effort as Discord does to onboard/migrate users, onboard/migrate community managers, and allow simple community management as well as automation, you'd have a snowball's chance in hell of convincing anyone to listen to your argument.

Matt Cengia

@MorpheusB Not for open source communities. Content needs to be visible and discoverable. For private messaging, yes, absolutely. For a community where people come to find information? End-to-end encryption is a detriment, not a benefit in that case.

Morpheus Being

@mattcen I do understand. I've used both for remote client group chats. I got so much junk using Discord, stopped using it.

Phil M0OFX

@mattcen I hope for the return of wikis and random (but search-indexable!) text files in the "/docs/randomhints" directory of the git repo!

patter

@mattcen even in commercial development, yes you'll use realtime chat (either voice or text) but any decisions from that on what needs doing get written into a ticket

your source control repo has a ticket system built in, and probably comes with somewhere permanent to store documentation

mounderfod

@mattcen I totally agree, but unfortunately the features that Discord has at the moment are unparalleled by any of the current open-source offerings - hopefully that changes quickly as the #fediverse becomes more popular

Jeff Atwood

@mattcen and please consider discourse.org as well! Fully open source, decentralized.

Matt Cengia

@codinghorror For sure! There are definitely lots of instances where forums are a better choice than instant messaging platforms for these communities; likewise, discussions happening on (ideally free and open-source) ticket systems that are searchable and accessible without an account are great too.

Matt Cengia

@skry Indeed; I didn't mention @RocketChat because AIUI it relies on you self-hosting it (I may be wrong), which can be a big barrier when you just want to write software and offer some level of community support for it, but don't want to become an impromptu sysadmin.

skry

@mattcen @RocketChat Indeed. As a non-sysadmin, if I were to try to start one I would probably do it via Sandstorm. What do you think about that as a solution for hosting apps? apps.sandstorm.io/

Matt Cengia

@skry I haven't looked into it in a long time, though I helped crowd-fund it (indiegogo.com/projects/sandsto).
It could be viable, bit is still a non-zero barrier to entry though (a) knowing a hosting service exists and potentially (b) having to pay for the hosting if your needs exceed that of a free tier.

John Cutting

@mattcen
YEEESSSS. Why do people do this? Isn't open source supposed to have the RTFM mindset? Now we need to beg contributors/managers to write the dang thing

DELETED

@mattcen i have read through the thread (mostly) and do not see a compelling argument for why i should stop using Discord (using it more than mastodon).

What if there was a Discord clone on GitHub and named Fosscord?

Mitex Leo

@mattcen Revolt.chat is a better alternative...

Simon (a 🐮 in 🇳🇿)

@mattcen @pearofdoom "Stop using Discord"... would've been enough, for me...

I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it

noodlejetski :verified_gay:

@mattcen louder for GloriousEggroll in the back, who posts this in GitHub readme DUDE THERE'S AN ISSUE TRACKER LITERALLY ONE A CLICK AWAY

Ben Hutton

@mattcen I guess by the same extension, anything beyond just git on GitHub too? Such as Projects and Discussions?

Rynach

@mattcen Amen. I have been interested in the Open 3D Engine for a while and it annoys how they use Discord. The reason must be that Amazon, Microsoft, Niantic and other folks are involved in it and perhaps for them creating a Discord "server" is intuitive.... but not for everyone else.

Word of Mouth

@mattcen@aus.social The one and ONLY thing I use discord for...

... is playing D&D with my bi-coastal party

Gonzalo Nemmi

@mattcen this .. so much ..
#Irssi +#Irc gets the job done.
#Ssh + #Tmux + #Irssi + #Irc for serious needs.

Alex Rosenberg

@mattcen Also Discourse. Terrible forums do not replace mailing lists.

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