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Top-level
@jaredwhite I would also add - the use of "tech journalist" doesn't help your argument. People talking about the content in podcasts - whether they're open RSS enclosures or things like Joe Rogan - aren't tech journalists. They're media journalists. I come from radio. A lot of radio (but by no means the majority) is now listened-to online, rather than radio waves. Doesn't stop it from being "radio", though. 40 comments
 @jamescridland With regard to "aren't tech journalists. They're media journalists" What? Are you trying to tell me that because someone's a "media journalist" it means that they don't have any responsibility to understand the basic technology by which said media is distributed? That's a total cop out. @jaredwhite With respect, I think it would be a good idea to read the article I've shared, wind your neck in a little, and think for a bit about "distribution platforms" vs "media formats". You don't get to tell millions of people listening to Joe Rogan that they aren't listening to a podcast. @jamescridland @jaredwhite For awhile I took the revised thought that aggregated platforms - the slight precursor to Spotify etc. was they _still_ used that underlying RSS feed to consume our podcast feeds to bring them into their walled garden - end users may not use RSS directly (even with say Pocket Casts I’m not sure the _player_ uses RSS now - the server… sure. @talios @jamescridland Well that's just splitting hairs. Whether Pocket Casts' servers download the RSS and then send the info to my client, or my client downloads it directly, is an implementation detail. The point is that Pocket Casts is nothing more than the middleman between where the feed is hosted and my ears. @jaredwhite @jamescridland true - just saying in that instance - as far as an end user is concerned there's nothing RSS specbabble involved in the consumption of a podcast. @jaredwhite @talios But, whether it uses RSS at all or not is also just an implementation detail. The product that we describe is a piece of on-demand audio. It isn't wedded to a delivery platform or mechanism. Perhaps it was once. @jamescridland @jaredwhite I guess with the recent rise of Mastodon/Fediverse - reminding, and _maybe_ returning to the roots of podcasting away from walled gardens isn’t a bad thing. That may be fine for grass roots indie podcasters, but the high-profile big-money media behind Podcasts-with-a-capital-P just might not care. We’ve removed (one of) the technical barriers to getting peoples voices heard - and that’s always a good thing. @talios @jamescridland @jaredwhite I mean by all means call out “Spotify exclusive podcasts are bad for the common good”. I agree with that 100% as a good fight. Fighting to say that “they shouldn’t be technically called podcasts” is beating a dead horse and achieves nothing except mainstream eyes glazing over IMO. @talios Speaking as a coder who works closely with industry folks on audio distribution tech, I can assure you the corporate execs and marketing types don't care at all about the distinction. Personally I do care whether I can open the program in a non-proprietary podcast app, as do many of the other techies who have been listening to podcasts for a while. But the name "podcast" has clout, so they gleefully colonize it despite our objections. @epilanthanomai @talios I appreciate hearing your perspective! Here's the thing I find upsetting. Podcasting becomes popular because it's so open, so accessible, such a low barrier to entry for a whole ecosystem of hosts and directories and players, etc. Much like the web itself. Then some corporate entities come along, gather up all that goodwill, and then use it to their advantage in a closed way—effectively stealing the brand. Business gonna business, but it sure rubs me the wrong way. @jaredwhite Oh, I'll happily go a step further and say it's flat-out harmful and wrong for them to do so, and harmful and wrong for journalists to report it neutrally as just a change in usage without a single critical word toward the harm done. FWIW Doctorow has a good article up in the last few days about "enshittification" that's pretty adjacent to all this. It doesn't address this exact point, but I think it's a good and relevant read anyway. / @talios @jaredwhite @epilanthanomai @talios the whole ecosystem grew on the directory of iTunes which Apple left open to anyone to use … if there hasn’t been this centralized database which is still one of the main sources for many podcast players the whole thing never would have happened. So corporate America made it happen in a sense … but in reality it’s a silly discussion as the ones about “what is the real format of music … live, vinyl, radio, cds or streaming” @derfrankie @jaredwhite @epilanthanomai iTunes support definitely leapfrogged things into the non-tech world for sure - but along side RSS don't forget we had OMPL for sharing distribution lists. I think I added OPML support to Norrell back the day but I basically ended dev work on that when jPodder came out (and then iTunes). Tho I was still one of the first to have automated download, integrated playback, and cross platform. I really should kept improving the app rather than switching. @derfrankie @jaredwhite @epilanthanomai and the answers 8-track :) @epilanthanomai @jaredwhite likewise I care - I may not be coding in that space anymore but have also been around since the beginning - different audiences get different language @jamescridland @talios @jamescridland @jaredwhite @talios @jamescridland @jaredwhite Insofar as it matters (not very far, I grant you!) Pocket Casts does use RSS on the client, even the web client. It makes cross-site requests to the RSS feeds to refresh and stream the audio. The server is just for synching subscription lists and listening positions. Not very important, but knowing how things work is fun. @jamescridland It's worth noting that not all of the Spotify-branded original shows are exclusive to Spotify. Of the ones that can be played in other players via RSS, those are most certainly podcasts. But it is my contention that when that's not the case, as it seems to be still with The Joe Rogan Experience, that then does not qualify as a podcast. @jaredwhite I understand where you're coming from, now you've calmed down and stopped shouting at reporters. I think the ship has sailed though. I understand your technical definition of what you consider a podcast; but I also look at this from a consumer point of view. There is no difference between Rogan and No Agenda; no difference between a BBC Sounds show and one on Apple Podcasts. It's a piece of on-demand audio, a bit like a radio show. And that is what most people call a podcast. @jamescridland @jaredwhite hi, I don't know either of you and I definitely don't have a horse in the "definition of a podcast" race but I am fascinated by your characterizing of Jared's language here as "yelling at reporters." To me it all comes across as very measured and polite, never turns personal in any way and allows for the presence of differing opinions while taking a position and holding it out of principle. Are you willing to clarify what you mean by this? @mshaw @jamescridland @jaredwhite Yeah, the "now you've calmed down and stopped shouting at reporters" bit was uncalled for. The phrase was: "tech journalists aren't doing their damn job" which doesn't really come across as measured, polite, or proportionate. I do my damn job. I do it very damn well. @muhkayoh @mshaw @jaredwhite I'd also suggest that the initial post from Jared was written very combatively, from the "Read My Lips" kick-off. Make a point, yes, but don't make it while being rude and inconsiderate, and best not to denigrate an entire profession while you do it. That's not really the best plan if you're trying to change the world. @jamescridland @mshaw @jaredwhite I see your bio says "passionate about audio." Could that passion be causing you to project a little? @jamescridland @muhkayoh @jaredwhite I see, thanks for clarifying. To be honest this strikes me as a shockingly low tolerance threshold, especially for someone in the profession of journalism (my mother the retired science museum curator gets more heated in discussing her birding newsletter), but I appreciate your honesty. @mshaw @muhkayoh @jaredwhite Thanks for your unsolicited thoughts on whether I should or shouldn't have just rolled over when someone tells me to "do my damn job". I think I'll go with my own thoughts on the matter, though! :) @jamescridland @mshaw @muhkayoh @jaredwhite maybe you should be looking into a career that's less public facing, if this discussion about technology terminology is upsetting you so much @jamescridland @jaredwhite There is a difference between Rogan and other shows, though: Rogan can only be played using Spotify, not a podcast player, while other shows, being podcasts, can be played in any podcast player. That both are on-demand audio shows makes them both “on-demand audio shows,” so they do have much in common. But the one that can only be played using Spotify isn’t a podcast. Pretty simple. @jamescridland @jaredwhite I've rarely been so dissuaded from clicking a link. Incidentally, how would you define a blog? @jamescridland @jaredwhite No. They're not listening to a podcast. They're listening to a ranting idiot on Spotify. Just like Calm's/Audible's gated content was never a podcast. It has similar form, but no feed = no podcast. You the media journalist are telling us that our problem is that we aren't putting the audience's views first? I mean we're "the audience" every bit as much as the 18% of people who say they listen to podcasts on YouTube, and while I certainly have my disagreements with Joe Rogan listeners I don't have any evidence that they think of it as a "podcast" versus an audio show. (1/2) Words belong to their users, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't oppose uses that unnecessarily destroy clarity. If you tell me something is a "podcast", I'm going to try to play it on what every person agrees is a "podcast player." Nontechnical people don't talk about "RSS protocol" or "walled gardens" but will understand "It is an audio show that is not a podcast, and therefore won't work on your podcast app." That's why the distinction is important to clarity. @jamescridland @jaredwhite I just assume anyone who’s listening to Joe Rohan is too stupid to understand what a podcast actually is.  @jamescridland @jaredwhite All definitions are always in flux. Certainly for everyone whose working definition of podcast is an RSS feed with audio streams, there are at least five people whose working definition of it is a thing in the Apple Podcasts catalog. Nobody has control over the evolution of language, but it sure seems like entities with deep pockets have more votes.. So since definitions are necessarily de facto in nature, I must say I agree with @jamescridland on the definition issue @jamescridland @jaredwhite nothing to stop a radio programme also being delivered as a podcast through. The BBC is very good at it. A fact, that as I live in Australia, I'm very glad of. |
Gregory's Server
@jamescridland The ecosystem of podcasting, like the ecosystem of the blogosphere before it, like the ecosystem of the web itself, has a certain inherent set of characteristics. One of them is that you can subscribe to a podcast in any player which supports podcasts. I consider that an inviolate feature of this medium.
If I can't subscribe to your podcast in my player of choice, it's not a podcast.