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Григорий Клюшников

dansup, the most curious question — does this work across instances, or does it only consider local posts? Recommendation systems are "easy" when you have access to everything you could possibly recommend and you can do all kinds of queries against that data. Not so easy when you have no idea most content exists in the first place.

I'll go another, equally uncharted way though. I want to try decentralized search by centralized identifiers. You'd import your friend list from somewhere, like Twitter or VKontakte, and then some ✨magic✨ will happen and you'll see fediverse accounts associated with those centralized identities. It should, in principle, be possible to make a DHT (distributed hash table) out of instances, and in that you'd store somehow preprocessed centralized IDs as keys and fediverse IDs as values. The idea is that you should be able to find a user on any instance from any instance.

2 Jun 2021 at 7:10 | Wall-to-wall
20 comments
  dansup

@grishka It uses local-only signals for now, though it wouldn't be hard to use federated content.

The key component is ranking signals in a scalable way, so the smallest and largest instances can take advantage.

Local vs Remote doesn't really matter to a new instance when you have no content, and thus discovery becomes more important.

I'm interested to hear more about your idea, I plan to use FediDB and its growing database to bootstrap discovery in Pixelfed.

2 Jun 2021 at 7:15 | Reply | Open on mastodon.social
  smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

@dansup @grishka

Indeed that idea sounds intriguing. Btw, there's also "Trunk for the Fediverse" with a concept that might be further integrated into apps, so getting interesting following becomes a lot easier.

communitywiki.org/trunk

2 Jun 2021 at 8:00 | Reply | Open on mastodon.social
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@humanetech
No, no "suggestions" please.

Suggestions are for people who undergo #hypnosis. Pls refrain from this kind of behaviour and thought process.

What happened to the federated timeline. That's precisely what it's for.

Refrain from making Fedi #FakeTwit2p0, please.

@dansup @grishka

2 Jun 2021 at 8:55 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
  smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

@dsfgs @dansup @grishka

You're referring to Suggested Posts that can have that issue.

Trunk is more like people saying "Hey, I like to talk about this and that subject" and then you add a bunch of them to your Following, which fills your personal timeline based on your topics of interest and you go from there.

You and I are people that discover a following on our own but many others aren't like that. They are disappointed with what they see and the federated timeline is full of crap to them.

2 Jun 2021 at 9:02 | Reply | Open on mastodon.social
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@humanetech
That is what hashtags are for. Maybe encourage ppl to search for hashtags until they have 10 followers or subscribe to 15, or until they say, close this and 'Don't remind me in future".

Discourse forum software does nice things to guide people. This might be what Fedi needs.
@dansup @grishka

2 Jun 2021 at 9:08 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
  smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

@dsfgs @dansup @grishka

Yes, that is true. A wizard-like onboarding tour in a freshly opened account may help educate newcomers how to enjoy their experience.

Is also not for everyone. I found the discobot in Discourse quite annoying, but hey.. you can turn it off too :)

2 Jun 2021 at 9:11 | Reply | Open on mastodon.social
  smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

@dsfgs @dansup @grishka

But still the hashtag approach is 'labour-intensive'. Doing this work is friction were maybe more people than you'd expect throw the towel in the ring. Like those that are just mildly curious what that Fediverse-thing is all about.

And when it comes to it, it is not *that* much different than the trunk approach, especially the functionality of joining a trunk topic group is brought closer to the individual fedizen by app integration (or even AP vocab extension).

2 Jun 2021 at 9:18 | Reply | Open on mastodon.social
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@humanetech
This is a #bigBowlOfWrong, sorry.

Our worst fear was a #centralised system, #Trunk, being some kind of magical authority on who gets a #blueCheck and who doesn't.

This #trunk™ will imply #popularity, which goes against the core aspect of Fedi, it will also lead to a duty to vet this list lest face legal/criminal(?) penalties.

Articles online tell people to use #hashtags on Fedi, for communicating and…

1/2
@dansup @grishka

@humanetech
This is a #bigBowlOfWrong, sorry.

Our worst fear was a #centralised system, #Trunk, being some kind of magical authority on who gets a #blueCheck and who doesn't.

This #trunk™ will imply #popularity, which goes against the core aspect of Fedi, it will also lead to a duty to vet this list lest face legal/criminal(?) penalties.

2 Jun 2021 at 9:58 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@humanetech
(2/2)… for #search. Some instances even ask people to list some hashtags in their profile that interest them. We can expand on this to encourage good use of hashtag.

Proceed with Trunk™ and we'll have no choice but to consider your service compromised.

This is how strongly we will fight against #hypnoticSuggestion and centralisation in Fedi.

Eugen has already cut admins out from new users, making it more difficult for admins to passively talk to Fedizens.

@dansup @grishka

@humanetech
(2/2)… for #search. Some instances even ask people to list some hashtags in their profile that interest them. We can expand on this to encourage good use of hashtag.

Proceed with Trunk™ and we'll have no choice but to consider your service compromised.

This is how strongly we will fight against #hypnoticSuggestion and centralisation in Fedi.

2 Jun 2021 at 10:04 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
  Nat🔆
@dsfgs @humanetech @grishka
I definitely get the concern; in fact, this does feel pretty reminiscent of one particularly nasty antifeature on Instagram where they keep you scrolling forever on your home feed by showing tailored content after all of your most recent posts. I think it's probably safe enough, though, assuming this *only ever* happens for people who aren't following anyone, and they keep using @dansup 's approach to making suggestions.

Especially with something like Pixelfed, you've really got to know your audience. As someone coming from Instagram myself, I don't think I've ever intentionally used hashtags. Unless I'm just an edge case, I'm assuming that at this point, hashtags are mostly used to generate more tailored content on the backend. And as a result, I don't touch hashtags much while on the Fediverse either. I'm not super big on suggestions, and it's definitely something the Pixelfed client I'm working on won't touch in a million years, but if that's the best way to keep people from getting turned off immediately from the Fediverse then the ends might justify the means on this one.
@dsfgs @humanetech @grishka
I definitely get the concern; in fact, this does feel pretty reminiscent of one particularly nasty antifeature on Instagram where they keep you scrolling forever on your home feed by showing tailored content after all of your most recent posts. I think it's probably safe enough, though, assuming this *only ever* happens for people who aren't following anyone, and they keep using
2 Jun 2021 at 14:49 | Reply | Open on social.njms.ca
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@nat
The ends do not justify the means.

Literature on the web says #Fedi is powered by hashtags like #introduction. It is the only way to #search on Fedi ethically, ie. a person should only be found based on keywords and phrases *they* choose. By not using #hashtags you are dismissing an integral part of Fedi.

Forgetting hashtags, theres the Federated timeline if you don't follow anyone. Other prompts can inform till 15 follows.

We suggested a Variety timeline.

@dansup @grishka @humanetech

@nat
The ends do not justify the means.

Literature on the web says #Fedi is powered by hashtags like #introduction. It is the only way to #search on Fedi ethically, ie. a person should only be found based on keywords and phrases *they* choose. By not using #hashtags you are dismissing an integral part of Fedi.

2 Jun 2021 at 16:04 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@nat @dansup @grishka @humanetech
Please don't break the spirit and foundational principles of Fedi for new users.

One could see this as a zero day attack.

We will only steer them to the mainstream influencers at the beginning.

What kind of silliness is this?

This is the time to inform the user that Fedi works differently and to step them through what makes Fedi so great.

How old does a user need to be to pull them from the #gamified #Fakebook model

These people want something different.

@nat @dansup @grishka @humanetech
Please don't break the spirit and foundational principles of Fedi for new users.

One could see this as a zero day attack.

We will only steer them to the mainstream influencers at the beginning.

What kind of silliness is this?

This is the time to inform the user that Fedi works differently and to step them through what makes Fedi so great.

2 Jun 2021 at 16:12 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@nat @dansup @grishka @humanetech

Make no mistake, this is the beginnings of the #InfluencerModel. The very fact this gamable model, is being seriously considered indicates something.

2 Jun 2021 at 16:28 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
  Григорий Клюшников

Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters, I really need to limit the depth of my threaded comments 🤔
2 Jun 2021 at 20:11 | Reply
  smallcircles (Humane Tech Now)

@nat @dansup @grishka @dsfgs

I also don't know what is best, and fully agree that impact and possible negative side-effects of any feature need to be carefully considered, and then - if possible - reinvented to not have them.

(That means we should be able to discuss them and immediate throwing of #ArtificialImpoverishment to our accounts by @dsfgs is a conversation killer, not helpful for fedi future)

The notion of "I am interested to socialize on these subjects" is worth brainstorming on.

3 Jun 2021 at 5:58 | Reply | Open on mastodon.social
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@humanetech @dansup @grishka
The so-called suggestions that pop-up in when typing in Google. Are designed to propagate #memes, they are perverse. Theyare known to link negative thoughts to people or processes that are not aligned with Google's goals.

We've experienced this first hand. A friend dismissed a therapy that could have helped them because Google added, "junk science" to a "suggestion".

Fight like hell to keep this stuff out.

Fork Mastodon now too, before Eugen adds Top Posts.

@humanetech @dansup @grishka
The so-called suggestions that pop-up in when typing in Google. Are designed to propagate #memes, they are perverse. Theyare known to link negative thoughts to people or processes that are not aligned with Google's goals.

We've experienced this first hand. A friend dismissed a therapy that could have helped them because Google added, "junk science" to a "suggestion".

2 Jun 2021 at 9:03 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
  dansup

@dsfgs @humanetech @grishka the suggested posts come from the trending API on the discover page, they are just the most liked posts in the past 24 hours.

When you join and aren’t following anyone, having an empty timeline is not ideal. All we are doing is taking the 10 most liked posts and showing them after the home timeline.

2 Jun 2021 at 10:48 | Reply | Open on mastodon.social
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@dansup
Please do not proceed with this.

Likes are gamed. Popularity contests go against the spirit of Fedi.

Make a timeline #Variety. Cycles through the Federated TL so everyone's latest post in the past 24 hours is shown first, then everyone's 2nd ranked by latest, then 3rd, etc. Proceed until you have log(n) users from that day left, then show a helpful screen that encourages searching w #hashtags if deemed needed. Then move to previous 24 hour cycle. Repeat.
@humanetech @grishka

2 Jun 2021 at 11:21 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
  Dick Smiths Fair Go Supporters

@dansup @humanetech @grishka
Adaption: cycle through each user in each 24 hour period at most three times, before moving to previous 24 hour period, or until less than log(n) users remain. If there are less than 50 unique users in a day tell the user the instance is not federated with many users today, and encourage them to find users on other servers, they might like. This list can be curated by admin.

Its for Variety and should not be the default TL.

@dansup @humanetech @grishka
Adaption: cycle through each user in each 24 hour period at most three times, before moving to previous 24 hour period, or until less than log(n) users remain. If there are less than 50 unique users in a day tell the user the instance is not federated with many users today, and encourage them to find users on other servers, they might like. This list can be curated by admin.

2 Jun 2021 at 11:35 | Reply | Open on activism.openworlds.info
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