@gargron There is clearly also a lot of demand to *not* implement something like that.

#QuotePosts

@Gargron I think that makes a ton of sense.

@Gargron I prefer the ‘opt in’ alternative. Let those who want it get it, don’t force those who don’t want it to get rid of it.

@Gargron Just a suggestion: An opt out/in setting not just with "allow/disallow" but with the values "allow all users, only allow followed users, only allow mentioned users, disallow all users" as an account setting with the option to change it per toot.

@Gargron It'll always be possible to use a permalink to a toot...

@Gargron please consider this approach which could solve many of the cons of this feature: https://mastodon.social/@bigzaphod/109508480570261961

@Gargron This is the right thing to do. Add the feature and allow users to disable if they so desire ✅ 👍

@Gargron His can you opt out of it? That doesn't makes sense given that you can just link it as a workaround.

@Gargron I'd like to have an opt out feature on a global level, i.e., on all of my toots and not just individually. I personally don't want QTs, and if we have to have that feature, users at least can opt out of it completely with one click.

@Gargron

Before that, can we have consistency on link previews?

https://androiddev.social/@krysanify/109595306068586969

@Gargron the opt-out choice is a good way to handle it.

@Gargron

Is this something, that should work via #ActivityPub?

@Gargron But please.. please.. not like Twitter does.

It seems so bad that if other people take the content of the original poster and gets more reach with that without some 'credit' or something..

On Twitter it was always the 'famous' people who ripped the tweets of others and got popular with it.. That seems so wrong

@Gargron This sounds like a good compromise. I'd like to have a quote function. Then I can explain, why I boost something and it's helpful for people who follow me to engage with me as well.

@Gargron

I do believe that the absence of quote-tweets is something that really makes a conversation healthier here. I still remember Twitter introducing quote-tweets and it starting slam-dunks from all sides of the spectrum.

@Gargron Honestly, I'd be more for quote posts than turning off replies. Turning off replies is how people put disinformation out while limiting the ability of others to comment. I think its one of the more problematic things the bird site ever did.

I see corporations and hateful people limiting replies far more often than I see it from any other group.

@Gargron
Sounds great! An account wide preset combined with granular control on each post would be nice.
It's sad that quoting on Twitter was often used in a bad way, but sometimes I just want to post a "Hey, look at this artist!" with a bit more context for my bubble. It works without quoting but it feels like when you're in a conversation and can't pull out your phone to quickly show people what you're actually talking about.

@Gargron very Important that it can be disabled

@Gargron More than just opting in on having your posts quoted, I hope we will be able to opt out of seeing them in our Home timeline. One of the under discussed worst aspects of quote tweets is mutuals using them bring stuff you try to avoid into your timeline. Like popular accounts you don’t necessarily want to block or mute, but don’t follow, but since folks want to add their two cents there they are.

@Gargron I am making good use of the filter to hide bird site links and would really appreciate a tic-box there to opt out of seeing quotes or being (ab)used via quotes. I appreciate that others would see it more positively though.

@Gargron as a victim of harassment, I strongly support quoted posts.
Users will always be cited by people at other instances by copying and pasting the post URL. But if I am not warned about it, I cannot check if the quote is a loyal comment or plain defamation.

@Gargron As a first-pass, the privacy setting of the post should be sufficient: if the post is public (i.e not unlisted, not followers-only), then it's fair game for QPs. If, for whatever reason, the original author wants to limit access after-the-fact, then changing the privacy setting for the post from public -> unlisted would achieve the desired effect

From an implementation standpoint, QPs could be implemented as a fully-rendered embed of the output from the /embed API endpoint

@Gargron But in true 2022/2023 fashion... Make it a poll that only Patreon members can vote on.

(This is a joke btw, please do not draw your pitchforks 🙏 )

@Gargron
How about opt-out for replies, opt-in for quote RT?

@Gargron
Not sure how that would help, you can still quote post with a screenshot and that doesn't address if someone retracts or edits a post. I'd rather have that chance to fix or clarify a post the someone quotes then just blocking it.

What's the logic in blocking quote posts?

@Gargron yeah I would expect it to take some time to implement this in a better way that adds the right friction / boundary-control points

@Gargron could you also please make it so that a quote-boost of a public toot CANNOT be locked/private or instance-only? I think that would do the most good toward reducing harm and discouraging the negative use cases seen on Twitter.

@Gargron Could instances choose to disregard the opt out setting though? Then it becomes moot with all the issues that can follow? I get that quoting is convenient but the same can be achieved with a bit less convenience and by using the link to a particular toot?

@Gargron Please look at issue 20673. It's got a lot of noise but good work on how the logic for this could work. See my comments (buried somewhere near the middle at this point) for good summary.

@Gargron Does this need a change in the ActivityPub protocol or can this be a mastodon only change? (Sorry my technical understanding here is limited)

@Gargron I remember why you did not want the quote posts and I still think you was right.

I understand that Twitter users feel more comfortable to be on a similar "environment" but this is not Twitter and some of us we are here exactly for that.

@Gargron that would be great! Then people who don’t want it can duck the downsides and it can foster communication, growth, journalism, etc. I’m delighted to learn you are considering this!! Please do it.

@Gargron That's a brillant way appropriate to the culture of Mastodon! Thanks for your thoughts, efforts and for all of your great work! 🌟🙏🏼

@Gargron I’d wait out the current moment. I joined, and said ‘where’s the quote post?’ It’s not necessary, and if someone really feels the need, they can comment in their own toot and post a link. There are a lot of new users who need to live with/use the app as it is before deciding. Demand may fade.

@Gargron Why opt out? Why not opt in?

@Gargron THANK YOU from Canada for this space. 🙏🙋‍♀️😊

@Gargron What about making them a #QuoteReply (roughly equivalent to a repost with additional reply text)? This avoids the problem of splitting the conversation, instead encouraging interaction with the original poster. See here for proposal and discussion: https://fediphilosophy.org/@keithwilson/109456249890156614

@Gargron is there any way to make it easier to see the captioning for the visually impaired, when composing it? I have visual issues myself and find it hard to see the letters when composing. They seem to be partially covered by the keyboard and the white font makes it difficult for me to see on top off the image. I’m new here and it could be the way I have set it up. Thank you 🙏

@Gargron rather default setting was off for that feature with an “opt in” option. QT is not that desirable. If you’re going to re-blog a post, commentary should come after the “RT” not as a header as is current with QT on the bird site. And remember, we called them Re-Tweets and had to copy paste and append RT manually.

@Gargron Would it be possible to make it opt-in instead?

@Gargron Much respect for considering this!

As a long time consumer of online communities, my sense it that the real danger with Quote Posts isn't harrasment (which can happen plenty of other ways), but they help basic misunderstandings to accelerate into angry conflict.

Giving the user the choice should greatly address that concern w/people who don't want that drama. The worst dog pile I was under came via friendly accounts after one person amplified one misunderstood one post in a thread.

@Gargron good. Everyone I've communicated with who wants it also wants it to be opt-in, on a per-post basis.

@Gargron I would say stick to no explicit quote tweet behavior but handle it however you handle the preview of links to mastodon posts and potentially allow masking of the preview

@Gargron A user-controlled option would be wonderful. Thanks for considering!

@Gargron Also, please include a feature to stop seeing any further QTs of a given post. If everyone is dunking on the same awful post, I don't want to have to see the same awful post over and over again

@Gargron makes sense.

@Gargron Please don't do this at all

@Gargron in that case make it disabled by default 🙏

@Gargron I clicked on the OP to suggest that you could definitely implement it in such a way that would uphold your original reasoning for not including it. Glad you've already put thought into it.

@Gargron cc: @taylorlorenz

@Gargron Question: what happens if someone quote posts a post that from an instance that has been banned on my instance?

Is this going to become a method that people use for #fediblock evasion?

What about quoted posts of people I've muted / blocked?

I think this is a much more difficult feature to implement in a large scale federated environment.

@Gargron Just to raise a question, as I don't know enough about the technical aspects even to speculate properly. Possible for "disallow quotes" be retroactive? If the option is on & a post goes unexpectedly out of control, could users have the option to make the quote-posts vanish? Maybe not as effective as just deleting & maybe overly complicated. Not sure. This is just brainstorming. But it's often incredibly difficult to predict what goes viral--or even a few steps in that direction.

@Gargron how can anyone possibly know how a quoted toot is going to be recontextualize in advance of allowing or disallowing it to be quoted.
Consent is meaningless when outcome is unknowable.
Retracting consent or consenting per quote is impossible / impractical.
We have a garbage website for dog-piles, it’s garbage.
Please not on #mastodon

@Gargron thank you! I'd really like to have a quotable feature, and that's a great idea to make it opt-in.

@Gargron
This helps make Mastodon and the #Fediverse an improvement over the failing bird site. I missed being able to quote-toot when I first arrived but it didn’t take long to realize it was just a habit and adjust. I’ve seen numerous others saying similar. The folks who are the most vociferous on this appear to have not even tried to adjust, they just want the other site without the new order/owner.
A very granular (toot-level) opt-in function would be ok, but not just an on/off per account…

@gargron I remember seeing a thread by a social media researcher saying your worry of QTs was justified by the data. So maybe keep that in mind.

@Gargron

An opt-out seems like the way to go. I personally do want QT but I think good faith users wouldn’t be looking to QT those who opt out anyway.

Mainly I think people (not looking to harass others) want to share posts that expect/want to be shared (news, articles, this thread) to their own followers and just add their comment or context.

@gargron PLEASE make this opt-in by default. Also yes on being able to turn it off.

@Gargron I'll take it. Hell, here's one further suggestion:

Make it per-profile-optional. Toot itself contains a hint that it's a QRT, and each profile itself has a choice in their options to "Show Quoted Toot", "Show 'Show Quoted Toot' Buttton", or "Do not show quoted toot" (so, combo box).

@Gargron make them opt in, not opt out. And quote posts are not able to be hidden from the original poster.

I still think they're terrible and encourage poor behavior.

Instead of conversation, people just start shouting. Encourages clout chasing, etc.

It's nice here without them.

@Gargron

I think this is the key. Make it at least semi consensual, or have the ability to lock out QTs.

Focus on positive conversation moving boosts, not dunks.

@Gargron I like that you can’t quote post here. Definitely should be an option to opt out if changes are made.

@Gargron The joy of Mastodon is that it is a conversation not a soapbox or clout platform. Replies are central to conversation, the distancing of a QT is not. If really needed, a link works fine. I’m new to actually being active here (set up an account in ‘17 but didn’t use it) and seems to me we should spend some time getting comfortable with the culture that’s been built before insisting you move the furniture around.

@Gargron displaying the quote above the responding text, allowing people to choose not to allow themselves to be quoted, and notifying the quoted user of the quote would together make a compelling difference from Twitter usage and solve real problems.

@Gargron If you do allow QTs, I'd like to see them automatically inserted in the replies to the toot being quoted. That way, people would be sharing the OT while also contributing to the conversation rather than derailing it.

@Gargron Thanks for putting thought into this

One of the most important features is visibility into "who is linking/quoting to my post [within ActivityPub]" to enable someone to block the primary source of harassment. But especially on a decentralized protocol like ActivityPub, that's nontrivial to say the least, and most (but not all) approaches would be inevitably incomplete.

@Gargron Thank you for this careful approach.

I am not keen of quoted posts because I like the idea of a platform that forgets.

Quoted posts would take the control over my posts out of my hand.

Editing, deleting, reposting - all these dearly loved features of Mastodon would be at risk.

I am very happy without quoted posts 🤷

@Gargron Sounds perfect! It would be great if replies, boosts and quotes were all toggleable on both account and individual toot level.

@Gargron I spent a while today on the birdsite. QTs seem to be used almost entirely to stoke outrage. I can’t say I miss them, or the constant “be offended by this!” noise.

@Gargron The only way I'd like to see this happen, especially if you're going to let people opt-out of replies, is tie quotes to replies.

If a reply is boosted it should quote the post it's replying to for context when you see the boosted reply by itself in your feed (without having to click through to see the OP). That would allow people to quote post only by boosting a reply, which would also preserve your original argument against quoting in favor of replying.

@Gargron doesn’t really make sense to allow opting out unless you ban images, since many quote posts are screen captures.

@Gargron "quote posts" should be a type of reply. ie: quoting a post doesn't escape the thread, it just boosts the thread in your own TL at the same time as replying.

That's my only objection to a "quote" feature: it encourages drive-by comments about another thread, rather than promoting discussion within the original.

example UI: a tickbox when writing a reply which says "also boost", and on your TL it boosts the OP while also making your reply visible. Call it a boost-reply.

@Gargron Hey, Eugen. I think quotes are a nice feature to have, it allows users to speak about topics without losing context. Yeah, quotes could be used to harass someone but having settings to handle them should be a must. Personally, I hate quotes from private accounts where you cannot reply.

@Gargron@mastodon.soc ial

Sometimes I've found quote posting helpful to explain, praise or contextualise something. I agree that it should be manageable, to minimise abuse.

@Gargron I'm against this, but maybe make it opt in if you feel you have to, which you don't

@Gargron opt-in PVP zones sound fine to me

@Gargron

Why don’t people just use a link to a toot with their comments added?

@Gargron

Thank you. I'm glad you're thinking carefully about it. That's even more important than the added features - that you're considering the impact. This is such a friendly place!

@Gargron the opt out feature would be great. Although I’m sure this would not be simple either - another modified option would be the ability to quote our own prior posts. It would allow everyone to quickly reference things we have said before that we want to add on to, without imposing the feature on others.

@Gargron A good compromise!

@Gargron That is the perfect compromise!

Opting into maybe? Instead of out of? ☑️ Quote Boosting Allowed (on this post).

Possibly only allowing it at the level of the OP?

@Gargron You can provide an opt out position on quote posts. But that doesn't address the fact that it can be used to help both the quote poster and the one being quoted. If someone insists they can't be quote posted they'll simply have their words provided without proof the entire meaning was provided. If someone thinks they're not being treated fairly by a quote poster they can complain and if they don't get satisfaction, they can block the offender. That seems a better approach to me.

@Gargron you could push quote toot responses into the thread.

So, allow people ( subject to opt ins/outs) to quote a post, but if someone replies, then it forms part of the original thread, rather than some off kilter side shoot. Might need a little label maybe (user x quote tooted) or some other indicator.

@Gargron

Given that one can already reply and then boost one's reply, could QT on Mastodon merely combine those operations into one step? QTs elsewhere are toxic because the original author has no visibility or control/influence, whereas replies (such as this, which I'll boost) could be the way to go. #QuoteToot #QuotePost #MastodonEvolution

@Gargron This strikes me as the ideal solution/compromise. #twitter #mastodon #quotetoot #qt

@Gargron what about disable _notifications_ of your post being quoted, not the quote functionality in other user's UI.

@Gargron Maybe an accountwide opt in, that could be overwritten by an opt out at postlevel would be something that everyone could live with.

@Gargron Disabling replies I mostly see as commercial, corporate broadcasting platforms & #BillGates.

Small bug: I lose the top of my menus in a desktop browser. This is vertical 900 pixels screen in Chromium/Linux at about the middle of the screen:

@Gargron Good afternoon. Happy New Year’s. I hope all is well. I wanted to share some false news that is being spread on Mastodon. May you please look at what disclose.tv on Twitter is posting about us. Thank you. I am absolutely outraged by this behavior. It appears they are posting this information to hurt us. I posted the link. Please take a look at what this individual has posted. Have a good day ser.

@Gargron Thank you!

@Gargron A fine compromise. My bet? After 6 months, not even 5% will opt-out, and that number will shrink quickly as people realize that much of the "abuse" was never a real issue (the moderation was). But your better reason, imo, that it promoted a lesser kind of engagement, may still prove accurate. I personally doubt it, but it might. Either way, it will be what it will. Time will tell. Thanks for revisiting it.

@Gargron I think this would be a good mix, having the feature but letting people opt-out of having posts quoted. That way, if someone is very much against the feature or has been trolled by people using it (as many of us have experienced on Twitter), then we have the option to disable that feature.

@Gargron Please do enable an opt out or make or opt in to start with. Have not missed numerous quote posts with eyeballs or a thread emoji.

@Gargron I think any form of quote toot would kneecap the platform's appeal to me. On the one hand you've got the timeline filling up with posts from like, parlor.toot because some well meaning doofus wanted to quote it and get their dunks in, on the other hand if you can toggle it off, you miss good people using it to hype up other good people with glowing reviews or recommendations.

Just let your boost be boost and toot be toot.

@Gargron My gut feeling tells me that that demand is coming mostly from people who came over here from Birdsite last year. Because the other site had it is not a good reason for introducing it - you should look at the quality of the demand, not the quantity.

One of the things that makes the conversations in this place more friendly is that we to NOT have this feature. Individually opting out will not fix the problems it introduces by people talking ABOUT instead of TO each other. #mastodon