Gregory's ServerNew blog post: Installing Guix on a 10th gen Thinkpad X1
https://dthompson.us/installing-guix-on-a-10th-gen-thinkpad-x1.html
#guix
dave
49 comments
Bas Alberts :emacs:
@dthompson went through a similar exercise when deciding between guix and nixos (also for a thinkpad x1) … and I was really hoping guix would pull out in front because I much prefer Guille over the Nix language. But, having to hack around the culture of “don’t talk or ask about non-free things” just to get mainstream hardware support was a bit of a non-starter and turned me off of the ecosystem so ultimately nixos won it for me (for now).
dave
@anticomputer well hopefully this post showed how it's pretty easy to work around! I've been running guix as a distro since it first became available but this was my first time using nonguix and it was pretty easy! I thought it might be a lot more difficult. pleasantly surprised.
Bas Alberts :emacs:
@dthompson oh yeah I have a fully working guix config for the thinkpad out of the nonguix channel as well as a custom channel for my own packages and all that … and I keep parity with my nixos config just in case I do want to switch. It was more frustration with the core culture of “I have to go do this hidden thing that’s treated as less-than by the maintainers”, than any technical barrier to adoption. It’s probably just my own subjective interpretation though :)
dave
@anticomputer I think there's a nonzero number of maintainers that want to revisit being tied to the GNU FSDG (pure speculation, though) 
David Wilson
@dthompson @anticomputer anywhere in particular that someone (or a number of someones) might offer some encouragement to move forward with this idea? 
MSavoritias
@daviwil @dthompson @anticomputer Second the FSDG. I would revisit even the whole attachment to gnu but maybe im too extreme on that regard. Certainly keeps me from contributing as much as i would like though the whole FSDG/Gnu thing.
dave
@msavoritias @daviwil @anticomputer I don't think that guix should provide steam or anything else like that. a separate channel is perfect for those. I think guix should make 2 changes:
MSavoritias
@dthompson @daviwil @anticomputer Completely agree. I just would like the development to support said software to be done it tne open. And as you said non free kernel would be nice. Because guix is too restricted by it at this point.
dave
@daviwil @anticomputer not sure, honestly! I edited my post to say it's speculation. there's a lot of discontent for the current state of GNU amongst the Guix devs so I'd be shocked if none of the maintainers were frustrated by the FSDG. 
IPmonger
@dthompson @daviwil @anticomputer is there a reasonable place I can catch up on the main arguments against? I’ve long been unimpressed with the strict stance of the GNU project, primarily for practical reasons. Only recently have I come to recognize the value of the position. I can’t avoid using proprietary solutions at work, but I definitely would require the guarantees of the GPL before I would accept certain types of tech solutions
David Wilson
@IPmonger @dthompson @anticomputer The main argument against FSDG is that the kernel firmware blob restriction just isn't practical because many users own laptops that are not compatible with Linux Libre. If the vast majority of your potential users have hardware that doesn't work with the distro and the guidelines forbid them to ask about it on official channels, it places a huge barrier. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need the proprietary blobs. I'd prefer it! 
Andres Moreno
@daviwil @IPmonger @dthompson @anticomputer I am encouraged by the changes to Debian--maybe this will help shift things. The fact that one can't have access to mainstream hardware supported by Libre software is frustrating, compounded by the "don't ask, don't tell" policy of the Guix distribution. Thanks for the installation guide. 
Ludovic Courtès
@dthompson With nonguix in your channels, you get not just non-free firmware but also all sorts of non-free userland programs, which may not be what you wanted.
Ludovic Courtès
@dthompson The question is that of the best strategy to increase the reach of free software. I hear what you say about lack of support for certain devices being an obstacle for the adoption of free systems; I can see it happening. But if we do want that software to be free as well, what should we do? Debian had a lever; now that it includes non-free firmware, it seems that we, collectively, are sending hardware vendors the message that we’ve given up. Tough issues.
Steve
@rml @civodul @dthompson 
blake shaw 🇵🇸
@SteveTux @dthompson @civodul free software is as invisible in your daily life as your city's plumbing or sanitization services. the world's infrastructure is powered by free software. it would be terrible thing for that to be monopolized by private interests.
Steve
@rml @dthompson @civodul
dave
@rml @civodul the issue is that Guix is beholden to the GNU Free Software Distribution Guidelines, which state that even referring to nonfree things is not allowed. It is more likely that hell will freeze over than convincing RMS to change this policy. so, the only real option for Guix to consider is dropping FSDG, dealing with the political fallout, and adopting their own slightly relaxed guidelines. I do not envy anyone who wants to open this can of worms on the mailing list!
David Wilson
@civodul @dthompson I don't think hardware vendors have any financial incentive to help us out with this. FSDG distro users are such a small minority of the Linux userbase that we probably don't even show up on their radar. What I'd really like to see is more "by hackers, for hackers" type hardware appear which actually does have open drivers and firmware. Extremely unlikely, but maybe someone could inspire the creation of a well-funded co-op?
David Wilson
@civodul @dthompson I love what Librem and Framework are doing, but if they continue to depend on Intel chipset then they'll probably never work with Linux Libre
Dominic Martinez
@daviwil @civodul @dthompson Well to be fair to them, truly free hardware like the MNT reform just isn't suitable for a mainstream device. There's a larger issue that we need to throw so many transistors at modern software that usable CPUs can be made at only a handful of places around the world which keep their IP tightly clutched to their chest.
Akib Azmain Turja
@daviwil @civodul @dthompson Is RISC-V a viable alternative for personal computers? I've heard that RISC-V is a free standard (as in freedom).
Akib Azmain Turja
@dthompson @daviwil @civodul Losedows (by Microsoft) is dominating in the OS market, so its unlikely to see RISC-V computer to be common until MS decides to support it. We, the free software activists, must make our own computers.
crypt17
have you considered playing with kmonad. With dual key functions you can get modifier keys on any key. I am currently using c and , as dual use control keys
crypt17
https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad
Ludovic Courtès
@daviwil @dthompson When devices wouldn’t work on Debian out of the box, I’d like to think hardware vendors had *some* incentive to fix it. One way or another, we have to make our voice heard; we have to make it clear that these freedoms matter to us. If we don’t even ask, we’re unlikely to get anything. Hardware by and for free software folks is an interesting avenue too. We’ll see.
Ludovic Courtès
@dthompson I just mean that it’s like enabling “non-free” in Debian: now ‘guix search’ turns up both free and proprietary things.
Alex
@dthompson @civodul nixos has an interesting feature for this case: nixpkgs.config.allowUnfreePredicate You can then effectively whitelist only the packages you require and still get an error for everything else Would something similar be useful for nonguix?
Ludovic Courtès
@aheaume @dthompson To be honest, I don’t find Nixpkgs’ handling of non-free software “interesting” at all. I contributed to Nixpkgs for ~4y. At the time, anything could get in Nixpkgs, free or not, and licensing info was often missing and was not reviewed, etc. Thus, as a user, if you chose to use only free software, you could hardly trust it to DTRT. I think mixing free and non-free in the same repo and in the same project is a big mistake.
Apo11o :emacs:
@civodul @dthompson I don’t have an opinion on how free/non-free repos should be handled, but I admire your stance and appreciate it. I’m new on Guix and even though the Guix Manual and Cookbook are amazingly written, do you think it’d be good idea for a wiki page mostly to explain how some packages work(or additional tips in the /packages page)? For example emacs-exwm looks for .exwm file otherwise loads exwm-default-config etc. Would be helpful to new users
Ludovic Courtès
@apo11o The project accepts contributions to the Cookbook in any form! If there are tip and tricks that you think ought to be documented, please propose a new Cookbok section. If differs from a typical wiki in that we collectively will take care of keeping it up-to-date, removing outdated info, and so on.
JLGatewood
@David Wilson
Thanks-- I'll definitely check it out and see if it's something I should attempt right now vs a nice winter break project... BTW, if I simply want to emulate your Emacs-for-everything setup just sticking with PopOS ('coz I know it's working!), how can I do that part? |
@dthompson agreed 100% about dropping the proprietary firmware restrictions from Guix. This is the #1 Guix adoption blocker for most people in my opinion.
I got a vibe at the Guix Birthday Event that dropping FSDG is a pretty widely considered idea...