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Ken Shirriff

An interesting chip: the MN3009 analog delay. It uses the bucket-brigade principle to delay an analog signal by passing the signal 256 stages. This provides a delay of up to 12.8 ms for reverb, chorus, or other effects. Unfortunately I cracked the die while decapping.

14 comments
Ken Shirriff

Here's the schematic, from the datasheet. Each stage holds the sampled voltage in a capacitor. The two clock phases push the capacitors up and down like a charge pump, dumping the charge into the next capacitor. Thus, the input signal appears at the output 256 clock cycles later.

Ken Shirriff

This closeup of the die shows how the signal winds through the circuit. Each stage has two PMOS transistors and a capacitor. The horizontal metal lines provide the two clock phases and the gate voltage Vgg.

Ken Shirriff

The analog delay is reminiscent of the shift-register memories that Intel and others built before RAM chips were practical. The difference is that the digital shift register has an inverter at each stage to keep the signal digital, while the analog bucket brigade dumps the charge from stage to stage without amplification.

righto.com/2014/12/inside-inte

Giles Goat

@kenshirriff So it's like 1 bit analog shift register ? I suppose as you have an analog signal on the input pin as you "shift" you also "re-sample" the input at the "clock frequency" you are using to shift the thing ? So it's a bit like a "256 bits analog sample FIFO" ?

Ken Shirriff

@gilesgoat Yes, although it doesn't make sense to discuss bits, since it is analog. It has 256 stages, so there are 256 analog samples inside the chip. Nowadays, you'd use a digital delay instead.

Giles Goat

@kenshirriff Yeah I mis-explained I meant "it's like every analog capacitor holds 1 analog bit". What I really meant was 256 STAGES. Yeah me too I don't get "how the transfer happens" and doesn't average .. there must be "some trick" ..

int21h

@kenshirriff @gilesgoat
Analog delays are still in use.
Even some digital delays mimic analog delays sound...

craquemattic 🏳️‍🌈

@kenshirriff @gilesgoat I have several BBD delays in my Eurorack cases that would disagree. ;)

BBDs have a particular charm over digital delays, and have specific feedback characteristics to boot, which make them very popular. I think these days there are double digits of brands that make a BBD delay module.

The PT2399 chip is what is used in the lion's share of these modules. I have several in my own collection and have designed my own delay circuit with it! BBDs are also perfect for karplus-strong synthesis.

So I suppose for most purposes the BBD is not the delay of choice, and it's definitely not the cheapest. But it is alive and well in the PT2399.

@kenshirriff @gilesgoat I have several BBD delays in my Eurorack cases that would disagree. ;)

BBDs have a particular charm over digital delays, and have specific feedback characteristics to boot, which make them very popular. I think these days there are double digits of brands that make a BBD delay module.

Ken Shirriff

Thanks to CuriousMarc for supplying the chip. The datasheet is here: experimentalistsanonymous.com/
Here's a paper on the chip: pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/
See also: imagesensors.org/Past%20Worksh
(I don't quite understand why the capacitors pass the whole charge to the next capacitor rather than averaging it out.)

Thanks to CuriousMarc for supplying the chip. The datasheet is here: experimentalistsanonymous.com/
Here's a paper on the chip: pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/
See also: imagesensors.org/Past%20Worksh
(I don't quite understand why the capacitors pass the whole charge to the next capacitor rather...

Laberpferd

@kenshirriff i understood thats why they are not connected to ground but rather to the clock lines

The previous capacitor is raised in potential with the one clock line going positve, so delivering its charge to the following capacitor is sitting at ground potential

multioculate

@kenshirriff I'm no circuits whiz, but: When clock phase 1 is asserted to +Vcc, the "donor" capacitor C1 will be connected to the "recipient" capacitor C2, and the voltage C2 sees across its terminals at the instant the clock is asserted is the voltage across C1, plus the clock voltage (+Vcc.) Then the voltage will try to equalize, so C1 will discharge and C2 will charge, and since Vcc is bigger than the input range, this will totally discharge C1 into C2, Crockcroft-walton generator style.

Ken Shirriff

@multioculate But why won't both capacitors end up at the average voltage: (V1 + V2 + Vcc)/2?

multioculate

@kenshirriff the "upside down" p-FET only lets the charge in the donor transistor through, and chokes off before the clock voltage can start contributing. Here's a quick and ugly Falstad sketch I made on my phone:
tinyurl.com/28yhhbq4

You effectively get a constant 0.7V offset from the MOSFET threshold added to it because of my sloppy circuit, but I imagine the real one accounts for this at the input/output.

Stewart Russell

@kenshirriff they have a distinctive sound, but you can't stomp on them like you can with a spring reverb

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