@derickr @Gargron Why limiting who can reply matters?...

Jerry Bell :verified_paw: :donor: :verified_dragon: :rebelverified:

@derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron I am curious because I’ve watched this happen a few times - the person being harassed doesn’t want to be harassed and doesn’t feel like they need to be taking actions to prevent it. For a person like this, who by design, is trying to establish a community, is it likely that they would be satisfied with a feature to restrict who can reply, or would we continue to see the same situation play out even with that feature in place?

1 September at 21:07 | Open on infosec.exchange

Ben Ramsey

@jerry @derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron There might be technical and user experience improvements we can implement to improve the situation, but the only way to fix this for good is to fix the culture.

I have a modest following here (I had many more on Twitter), and I never see this kind of behavior directed at me. It’s unacceptable that anyone should be subjected to this, thick-skinned or not. We have to work together to make it socially unacceptable.

1 September at 21:19 | Open on phpc.social

Derick Rethans

@ramsey @jerry @ilijastuden @Gargron And provide the moderation and functionality tools to make this easier to do.

1 September at 21:38 | Open on phpc.social

Mackaj

@derickr @ramsey @jerry @ilijastuden @gargron

Veronica wanted to be able to post with replies disabled, or disable replies later if comments became too burdensome or horrible. Lack of those features left her unable to control her exposure to misogynistic aholes and has driven her off.

This will continue to happen unless these safeguarding holes get fixed.

1 September at 22:49 | Open on mastodon.me.uk

a spooky jazz dad..

@mackaj @derickr @ramsey @jerry @ilijastuden @Gargron

Exactly.

1 September at 22:52 | Open on mastodon.social

JimmyChezPants

@ramsey @jerry @derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron

At the moment we mostly can't even see it happening, due to the ways the current form of Mastodon is designed.

It's also ridiculous to say that instead of implementing the feature(s) that have been requested *by the targets of Mastodon harassment* is not the right thing to do, but rather, we should change the soul of man. So much easier than implementing a feature or updating the protocol implementation for greater agency to good-faith users.

1 September at 22:26 | Open on growers.social

Ben Ramsey

@jpaskaruk @jerry @derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron I didn’t say “instead of.”

1 September at 22:39 | Open on phpc.social

Larry Garfield

@ramsey @jpaskaruk @jerry @derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron It's all about increasing the cost of being an asshole. That can be done through both technical and social means, and they can be reinforcing. But both are necessary.

1 September at 22:44 | Open on phpc.social

JimmyChezPants

@Crell @ramsey @jerry @derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron

Silly me, I thought it was about listening to users who are being harassed and taking our cues from them. They've asked for one feature at least that seems like a very good idea to me - the ability to have only people you follow able to reply to you.

It's 2024; we can do that. As I see it, it would involve an update to the protocol that rejected reply attempts, and have the originating server not keep the toot.

Send in the freedom bros...

1 September at 22:51 | Open on growers.social

Ben Ramsey

@jpaskaruk @Crell @jerry @derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron We’re not arguing with you. We’re agreeing.

1 September at 22:57 | Open on phpc.social

Robyn

@jerry
The requested feature would absolutely prevent the harassment happening on her posts. Currently the only way she can stop these people having a mocking women party there is by restricting visibilty to followers only- which isn't at all what I want her to have to do. No-one would be able to boost her positivity into my feed and I would never find her

1/2

@derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron

1 September at 23:04 | Open on mastodon.nz

Robyn

@jerry
Ironically one group of people known to use the feature that limits post visibility to followers only is racists.

They can post on a black person's timeline to coordinate attacks on them. Their followers can see it. The people being attacked can't. And even when alerted all they can do to control it is delete the post. All they can do to prevent it is post to followers only

Still wonder why we don't see many black people here?

2/2

@derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron

@jerry
Ironically one group of people known to use the feature that limits post visibility to followers only is racists.

They can post on a black person's timeline to coordinate attacks on them. Their followers can see it. The people being attacked can't. And even when alerted all they can do to control it is delete the post. All they can do to prevent it is post to followers only

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1 September at 23:08 | Open on mastodon.nz

DHeadshot's Alt

@RedRobyn
I thought if you mentioned someone in a follower-only post that saw it?
@jerry @derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron

1 September at 23:52 | Open on topspicy.social

Robyn

@ilijastuden
One of the really important parts here is how the only moderation tool that's available to her to stop the harassment is to delete her entire post. Blocking the harassers does not stop them being able to interact with each other on replies on her post. And been unable to limit replies to followers makes alt accounts for harassers even more effective here.

@derickr
@Gargron

1 September at 22:58 | Open on mastodon.nz

Artemesia

@RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron

"Only"? What about Block&Report? In my experience moderators have been quite quick and responsive dealing with overt violations of server rules, and ready to defederate from instances that don't enforce those rules. But the mods can't do shit if you don't report.

2 September at 0:50 | Open on techhub.social

Robyn

@artemesia
She quite specifically says blocking them does not stop them continuing to interact with each other on the thread. It only stops her seeing it
I understand that even if they can no longer see her posts they are still there, still seeing everyone else's and still visible to others. It's also potentially draining whack-a-mole work.

Reporting assumes that the harassers host admins give a shit. Anecdotally if they don't it can also lead to .targeting

@ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron

@artemesia
She quite specifically says blocking them does not stop them continuing to interact with each other on the thread. It only stops her seeing it
I understand that even if they can no longer see her posts they are still there, still seeing everyone else's and still visible to others. It's also potentially draining whack-a-mole work.

Expand text...

2 September at 0:57 | Open on mastodon.nz

Artemesia

@RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron

You know that admins on your own instance can block or limit users on other hosts, and defederating from the offending instance will be discussed? Perhaps my experience with mods has been more positive than yours.

2 September at 0:59 | Open on techhub.social

Robyn

@artemesia
I have a small and relatively inoffensive account. But I listen to and believe victims of harassment. I think it's interesting that the most pushback I get is when I try to amplify their voices.
The short answer is no, not everyone gets a good response from their own admins, and no "just move then" is not helpful advice.

@ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron

2 September at 1:04 | Open on mastodon.nz

Artemesia

@RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron

On an individual basis one can domain block the instance hosting the harrassers.

Um, if you're being let down by your own instance's admins, "just move" is the correct response, and only response. Enough people walk those admins might see the light.

2 September at 1:20 | Open on techhub.social

Robyn

@artemesia
I am not being let down by my own instances admin.
I am being let down by fediverse developers' refusal to make a tool that is requested by victims of harassment, vis the ability to limit replies to followers only. When we ignore such requests and instead lecture people that it is their fault , or their admins fault, for not using the moderation tools they have told us are inadequate, we are effectively victim blaming.

@ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron

@artemesia
I am not being let down by my own instances admin.
I am being let down by fediverse developers' refusal to make a tool that is requested by victims of harassment, vis the ability to limit replies to followers only. When we ignore such requests and instead lecture people that it is their fault , or their admins fault, for not using the moderation tools they have told us are inadequate, we are effectively victim blaming.

Expand text...

2 September at 1:31 | Open on mastodon.nz

Artemesia replied to Robyn

@RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron

Without seeing the behavior you're referencing, it is impossible to analyze what would fix it. But I do take exception to your strawman assertion that there is no way for a user to handle shitposting replies save deleting their own post. Next time this happens, try calling out the shitposting in your own post, using the fediblock hashtag.

Meanwhile, you can set your own profile to automatically post "visible to followers only", or do that on an individual post basis. https://nerdschalk.com/make-mastodon-account-private/

But I don't think you're arguing in good faith here, when you jump to assert victim blamind, and your back to back replies include:

"The short answer is no, not everyone gets a good response from their own admins"

"I am not being let down by my own instances admin."

I'm going to mute this thread now.

@RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron

Without seeing the behavior you're referencing, it is impossible to analyze what would fix it. But I do take exception to your strawman assertion that there is no way for a user to handle shitposting replies save deleting their own post. Next time this happens, try calling out the shitposting in your own post, using the fediblock hashtag.

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2 September at 1:49 | Open on techhub.social

Robyn

@artemesia
Further: the enough people walking? They ain't moving instances. They are moving to bluesky. Which I think is where this thread came in.
And the devs aren't seeing the light. They are seeing people enabling them by explaining the tools are fine.

And I believe we are worse off because this place is qwhite white. One of the glorious things about bipoc Twitter was being able to get an education on decolonising myself, just by shutting up and listening.

@ilijastuden @derickr @Gargron

@artemesia
Further: the enough people walking? They ain't moving instances. They are moving to bluesky. Which I think is where this thread came in.
And the devs aren't seeing the light. They are seeing people enabling them by explaining the tools are fine.

And I believe we are worse off because this place is qwhite white. One of the glorious things about bipoc Twitter was being able to get an education on decolonising myself, just by shutting up and listening.

Expand text...

2 September at 1:38 | Open on mastodon.nz

JimmyChezPants

@artemesia @RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr

This is great for weirdos like us who will happily spend all night writing software for antique computers that nobody will use outside of a few other weirdos. "Just move" is actually a reasonable thing to say, to me.

But when @Gargron talks growth, he wants more normies to show up, and not just because their old home has been handed over to trolls.

But exceedingly few here, it seems, actually understand normies at all.

2 September at 9:47 | Open on growers.social

Fish Id Wardrobe

@artemesia @RedRobyn @ilijastuden @derickr @gargron If the offending party is not on an instance with willing moderators, then all that does is hide their posts from you.

2 September at 8:08 | Open on social.tchncs.de

Phil Stevens

@derickr @ilijastuden @Gargron Unsafe spaces in social media apps run by billionaires are why millions of us left. Let's not make the same mistakes here.

2 September at 0:31 | Open on mastodon.nz

Ilija Studen

@tomjennings @derickr @Gargron Of course it's not about me. I asked for a perspective that I was lacking, and was show what I was missing. That's what conversations are for.

2 September at 11:59 | Open on mas.to