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eli_oat

What if the real answer to permacomputing is less computing, and not increasingly esoteric conglomerations of arbitrarily chosen hardware and language paradigm? :blobpeek:

28 August at 13:22 | Open on tenforward.social
17 comments
eli_oat

Also, to be wicked clear, this isn't to yuck anyone's yum, nor stop anyone's projects! I think a lot of the projects in the permacomputing space are rad and great and a lot of fun but maybe the wind under their wings can sometimes be that they're fun and interesting and not that they're gonna save the world -- why are we putting that pressure on an esp32 board running a cool dialect of forth?

28 August at 13:39 | Open on tenforward.social
Andy K S

@eli_oat My read on permacomputing is that the question it implicitly poses is something like, "How do we extricate this gadget-based hobby that is so compelling to us from its complicity in burning the world, in a way that increases what makes it compelling and pleasurable to us?" That last part is at odds with a kind of austerity or post-apocalyptic thing inflecting some of the projects, but I actually think it's a great question that more creative domains (e.g. music) should pose.

28 August at 13:56 | Open on assemblag.es
Görllewin

@eli_oat I read a good perspective, possibly on my timeline here, about how the best preparedness action you can make for any future disaster is to really get to know your neighbours now. It stuck with me. Also while I was messing about with LoRa depth sensors for our old water tank a neighbour used to measure with an old broom handle. Increasingly (in my more nihilistic moments I guess) I can't see much of a use for computers outside of capitalism and hobbies.

28 August at 14:25 | Open on merveilles.town
Devil Lu Linvega

@eli_oat always has been! It is about using computation only when it has a strengthening effect on ecosystems.

28 August at 14:58 | Open on merveilles.town
ultrageranium

@neauoire @eli_oat absolutely, maybe we should be more explicit in the wiki about this because this is certainly shared and taken for granted by all the people who have been active in this space so far, and who are generally extremely critical of the invasive and pervasive position of the so-called digital revolution. We could even say that less computing (both as in computational/resource degrowth, but also as in less time we spend interfaced with machines) is both a motivation and consequence that arises when we start to critically evaluate our relationship with computer. The problem is that this is more difficult to communicate, compared to showcasing a cool rad projects because it really touches to ways of living more mindfully with machines and networks. It's an important one to highlight as well because it really touches to the issues of privilege that is right now a hard to avoid pre-condition to be able to re-negotiate our relationship with computing. This makes the political dimension of pmc even more relevant as a consequence. How can we be more clear about this?

@neauoire @eli_oat absolutely, maybe we should be more explicit in the wiki about this because this is certainly shared and taken for granted by all the people who have been active in this space so far, and who are generally extremely critical of the invasive and pervasive position of the so-called digital revolution. We could even say that less computing (both as in computational/resource degrowth, but also as in less time we spend interfaced with machines) is both a motivation and consequence that...

28 August at 16:17 | Open on post.lurk.org
Devil Lu Linvega

@320x200 @eli_oat "using computation only when it has a strengthening effect on ecosystems" is literally the second sentence on the permacomputing page on xxiivv wiki, but I don't think anyone takes the time to read anything anymore, making it more explicit on the pmc won't fare much better.

All the discourse about pmc nowdays are putdowns aimed at some sort of vegetarianputation disconnected from anything envisioned on any pmc documentation anywhere, the failure is not in the wiki pages.

28 August at 16:23 | Open on merveilles.town
ultrageranium

@neauoire @eli_oat I don't see it quite like this. When an idea, term, discourse, concept, etc, starts to circulate, (mis-)appropriation and (mis-)interpretation are unavoidable. In that sense pmc is *both* a by-product of cultural diffusion itself in relation to many other ideas and concepts that predate its formulation, *and* it is in turn at the origin of many other variations to come and in the making through discussions like in this thread. It is true that it can be frustrating when some time has already been spent on enunciating some aspects of pmc, and people are responding to a term, projecting things without having spent necessarily enough time to engage with it to see if this pertinent or not. Similarly it can also be frustrating when it is used in a questionnable or trivial way. But I see these moments as opportunities to sharpen up things and better understand what kind of things it triggers. There are enough people who care about all this to make it very worthwhile and useful I think :)

@neauoire @eli_oat I don't see it quite like this. When an idea, term, discourse, concept, etc, starts to circulate, (mis-)appropriation and (mis-)interpretation are unavoidable. In that sense pmc is *both* a by-product of cultural diffusion itself in relation to many other ideas and concepts that predate its formulation, *and* it is in turn at the origin of many other variations to come and in the making through discussions like in this thread. It is true that it can be frustrating when some time...

28 August at 17:07 | Open on post.lurk.org
Devil Lu Linvega

@320x200 @eli_oat It's true that I cannot find the pmc concept of self-obviation(which is what is being talked in the OP) anywhere on the wiki, that could be added somewhere in principles as it's something people often do not infer from the rest of the principles? 🌻

postgrowth.art/self-obviating-
28 August at 17:16 | Open on merveilles.town
Kartik Agaram

@neauoire There's a powerful difference between articulating constraint and tendency.

Constraint: "Use computation only when it has a strengthening effect on the ecosystem." This can seem overwhelming, because we're talking about intrinsically non-linear systems where consequences are hard to predict.

Tendency: "Try to make yourself less and less necessary to the functioning of the ecosystem." Oh cool, now I know which way is up!

@320x200 @eli_oat

28 August at 17:32 | Open on merveilles.town
ultrageranium

@neauoire @eli_oat yes it's only very very very anecdotally present in permacomputing.net/getting_sta

"Approach computer use and acquisition with longevity in mind, considering things like whether you need to buy new hardware, or could you repurpose an old computer or device instead? Does it need to use a computer at all?"

But you need to know the context to read between the lines. I think we can do better :)

I agree that this aspect needs to be in the design principles. More generally, I think the current principles could do with a thorough revision and update. I think we are in a good place now to rethink a few things.

@neauoire @eli_oat yes it's only very very very anecdotally present in permacomputing.net/getting_sta

"Approach computer use and acquisition with longevity in mind, considering things like whether you need to buy new hardware, or could you repurpose an old computer or device instead? Does it need to use a computer at all?"

28 August at 17:42 | Open on post.lurk.org
Alexander Cobleigh

@neauoire @320x200 @eli_oat chiming in to share that "what is permacomputing?" has been on my mind for the past months, despite reading both pmc.net and xxiivv wiki; for me it has predominantly been "a vibe"

i wonder if in the future there will be a well-defined category twinning with pmc, e.g. consider agroecology: the well-defined study of agriculture within ecological bounds and logics. compare it to permaculture's lack of clear boundaries & definitions, at least wrt academic usage afaiu :)

28 August at 17:44 | Open on merveilles.town
WimⓂ️

@neauoire In this context, what are those ecosystems?

@eli_oat

28 August at 18:19 | Open on merveilles.town
Devil Lu Linvega

@wim_v12e @eli_oat whichever the living environment in which computation is thrown at a problem

28 August at 18:35 | Open on merveilles.town
WimⓂ️

@neauoire OK, I see, it's a "real" ecosystem ^_^.
I asked because "ecosystem" is also used as a term of all the tools etc you need for a certain way of computing, like "the Python ecosystem".

@eli_oat

28 August at 18:53 | Open on merveilles.town
Devil Lu Linvega

@wim_v12e yes yes, usually computation is used to solve human problems(sometimes animal problems too, often both)
For example, your water tank or bilge pump automatic float-switch keeps you afloat and alive, and keeps the toxic chemicals aboard out of the water and thus protect the life under the surface. The amount of computing power here should be as thin as possible to benefit and not get in the way of the lives of the ecosystem(people aboard, and of the fishes and mammals below)
@eli_oat

28 August at 22:07 | Open on merveilles.town
mirth

@neauoire @wim_v12e @eli_oat One of the most challenging aspects of computer related infrastructure is allowing for anyone besides yourself to operate and maintain the thing.

28 August at 22:10 | Open on mastodon.sdf.org
WimⓂ️

@neauoire
There is indirection though, isn't there? Often we solve problems by paying money to someone else, and a lot of people (most I guess) use compute to do the work to earn that money. That creates additional constraints which might lead to a higher use of compute than in the direct case.
I am just thinking aloud here about the implications of the premise. Of course it could be that it is simply impossible to adhere to pmc tenets unless the org/corp you work for does.

@eli_oat

@neauoire
There is indirection though, isn't there? Often we solve problems by paying money to someone else, and a lot of people (most I guess) use compute to do the work to earn that money. That creates additional constraints which might lead to a higher use of compute than in the direct case.
I am just thinking aloud here about the implications of the premise. Of course it could be that it is simply impossible to adhere to pmc tenets unless the org/corp you work for does.

29 August at 11:43 | Open on merveilles.town
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