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Fesshole 🧻

My employer added a clause in my last NDA stating that I was prohibited from saying anything "disparaging" about the company. Now when anyone asks about job postings I tell them, "I'm contractually obligated not to say anything disparaging about them." None have ever applied.

83 comments
kaybee

@fesshole malicious compliance, we love to see it 🤩

Resting Facebitch

@fesshole That is far, far more damaging to them than anything disparaging you could say. And saying anything disparaging would make you look like a spiteful, bitter nut job.

This is very good. They shot themselves in the foot 🤣 priceless.

mkj

@monsoonrains That's not a shot to the foot. That's a BFG 9000 taking out approximately everything from the neck down.

@fesshole

Martin Vermeer FCD

@fesshole Like when the moderation rules on your instance prevent you from wishing anyone dead and you just point that out with reference to certain persons.

GNU/r000t :verified_root:

@martinvermeer @fesshole You will find that, with most instance moderators, this works if, and only if, they agree with you.

If you say that about someone the mods like/agree with, suddenly the rule applies. This has been how internet moderation has worked since the late 20th century.

Sayar Tyler :fediverse:

@r000t @martinvermeer @fesshole One of the positives of having a single-user instance is that I'm completely responsible for all of the crap that I say and do on here.

Sayar Tyler :fediverse:

@martinvermeer @r000t @fesshole I don't look at it too deeply like that. I just only want to risk being gawked at by potential future employers, rather than some rando on the Twitter safety team or whatever. 😂

Moah

@fesshole in Sweden it's actually illegal (disparaging your employer), you have a duty of loyalty from what I've been told

argv minus one

@Moah

In Sweden, the employer also has a duty to you. Very different system.

Moah

@argv_minus_one The common point is you better be unionized

levampyre

@Moah Well, in Sweden 65,2% of the workforce are unionized. Only Denmark, Cuba and Iceland have a higher percentage. @argv_minus_one

Natanael ⚠️

@Moah @fesshole there's a loyalty principle for employees, but we also have freedom of expression. So you're expected to not make statements meant to harm your employer, but you still have a right to speak up about eg. dangerous situations and infringement of your worker rights, etc.

Moah

@Natanael_L @fesshole I was told (as a swedish employee) that were supposed to raise these issues internally

Natanael ⚠️

@Moah @fesshole usually it's where you should start, but companies can't use that to shut down complaints. You have a right to speak to union representatives, etc, and whistleblowing is protected in our constitution

🐘 Philippe-Aziz Ctr ⏚ 🍉

@Moah @Natanael_L @fesshole you can alert authorities (European union enforces whistleblowers protection)

We have the same case in France as you have in Sweden

Nova

@Moah @fesshole Surely that doesn't mean you have to praise them? Refusing to say anything about them without any justification should also get the point across in general.

Mans R

@Moah @fesshole You've been told wrong. Swedish work culture is weird in some ways, but it's not quite that bad. Here's an article from a while back saying such a clause in a contract would likely be unconstitutional: sverigesradio.se/artikel/72898

Fortiter Games / dpmcalister

@fesshole I had a similar clause in a redundancy payoff and was advised that saying something like what the OP says could be classed as a breach of the clause as you are inferring negative comments about the company.

NilaJones

@FortiterGames @fesshole

If the person advising you doesn't know the difference between implying and inferring, I wouldn't worry about their advice

Fortiter Games / dpmcalister

@NilaJones @fesshole They had a law degree and it was about 10 years ago so that’s probably my error 😉

Natanael ⚠️

@FortiterGames @fesshole you can be less specific. "my lawyer advised me to not answer that question after reviewing my contract"

Log 🪵

@FortiterGames Ah. In the US, the truth shall be sufficient defense against all defamation claims. UK & Europe have defamation laws more favorable to the supposedly injured party.

Having just been let go, it's likely I'd get a bit snarky about it. "How much would you reduce my package if we took this out? Could I get more if I were required to say positive things whenever asked?"

Philippa Cowderoy

@FortiterGames @fesshole Advised by them, or by someone who was being paid to give you legal advice in your own best interest rather than theirs?

Fortiter Games / dpmcalister

@flippac @fesshole A friend with a law degree gave me the advice. No money changed hands.

Philippa Cowderoy

@FortiterGames @fesshole Fair enough. As I suspect you know, never take your opposition's words as legal advice for yourself!

Space Hobo Actual

@fesshole "On advice of counsel, they have many fine qualities and I wish them well."

racad001

@fesshole este toot tendría sentido si incluyera el nombre de esa compañia....
@espanabizarra

Zimmie

@fesshole “They’re the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful company I’ve ever worked for in my life.”

DEDGirl

@bob_zim @fesshole Right? Or just do a “They’re Huge! They’re the very best people! Some people say it’s the best company on the planet!” I mean, it totally works for some people. 🙄😂

mkj

@DEDGirl @bob_zim Maybe add something along the lines of "and that's all I'm contractually allowed to say on the subject" at the end? 🤔

@fesshole

King Kaufman

@bob_zim @fesshole

I just watched that, and I had come here to say this!

Nick Astley

@fesshole I mean, I'm pretty sure that clause is illegal/unenforceable now

🏳️‍🌈🜏 Living Decay 🜏🏳️‍🌈

@fesshole , the other important factor here is it tells them you can also comply and understand the terms of a contract.

Matthew Lyon

@fesshole a company I worked for got acquired by the local phone company and I had to sign something similar, so now when I describe their DSL offerings I use that same phrase

DELETED

@fesshole the last job I left they offered to pay me two weeks salary if I signed a non disparagement agreement.

At that moment, I told them to check GlassDoor because I had already left my disparaging review of the company.

A friend of mine stayed in another year and said that they were unable to hire anybody to replace me because of my very honest GlassDoor review.

Mark Whybird

@mhalligan @fesshole I wonder if legally you could have taken the money and still left the review up, since it was written before the non-disparagement agreement?
(Your way is much more legally clean though - kudos)

Varbin :arctic_fox: ​:gay_furr:

@fesshole
I must not complain on social media about my employer. But nobody told me to stay silent in "real life".

LeoBurr :leoburr:

@fesshole @the_gneech It’s not disparagement if it’s verifiable fact. Keep that in your back pocket.

PlasmaGryphon

@LeoBurr @fesshole @the_gneech be careful, as I think some non-disparagement agreements try to go further than usual laws about defamation, so truthfulness might not be a defense. Although if someone else has said the facts publicly, can point people there... maybe.

I'm used to these types of agreements being only for settling suits or when given a severance to get you out the door when there's a potential wrongful termination or other suit. It sucks if they are making regular employees sign it.

I have also seen employers try to make leaving employees sign such things when quitting/laid off, but unless they give you something extra nothing forces you to sign it then.

@LeoBurr @fesshole @the_gneech be careful, as I think some non-disparagement agreements try to go further than usual laws about defamation, so truthfulness might not be a defense. Although if someone else has said the facts publicly, can point people there... maybe.

I'm used to these types of agreements being only for settling suits or when given a severance to get you out the door when there's a potential wrongful termination or other suit. It sucks if they are making regular employees sign it.

LeoBurr :leoburr:

@PlasmaGryphon @fesshole @the_gneech They usually make you sign it in order to get your severance for virtually all employees now. Again, defamation, either libel or slander does not apply when the substantial (even if not absolute) truth is being stated. Now any company can sue you for any reason or no reason at all, but if you feel compelled to tell truths about your company, it’s legally defensible.

PlasmaGryphon

@LeoBurr @fesshole @the_gneech truth is defense of defamation (in US at least, more complicated elsewhere), but to be clear, these agreements often go above and beyond that. Whether they hold up in court is another story and a lawyer can comment on that looking at the actual wording. But I am pretty sure you can sign agreements that prevent you from even saying the truth, as long as the scope is appropriate, there is condsideration, etc. And they can't stop you from reporting illegal activity.

LeoBurr :leoburr:

@PlasmaGryphon @fesshole @the_gneech You can sign agreements indicating that you are a walnut. It doesn’t mean it holds up in court. :)

Zimmie

@LeoBurr @PlasmaGryphon @fesshole @the_gneech The extra pay is contingent on not disparaging them for some period of time. If you disparage them, regardless of whether it’s true or not, you would be in breach of contract and subject to the penalties in the contract (probably have to pay back the severance pay plus some amount of damages).

Truth of a statement is only a defense against *liability for* slander or libel, and only in some jurisdictions. Doesn’t affect the contract dispute, since it’s not a lawsuit over liability for the disparagement, just over the breach of the contract.

@LeoBurr @PlasmaGryphon @fesshole @the_gneech The extra pay is contingent on not disparaging them for some period of time. If you disparage them, regardless of whether it’s true or not, you would be in breach of contract and subject to the penalties in the contract (probably have to pay back the severance pay plus some amount of damages).

Ysegrim

@fesshole In Germany, it's vice versa – employees have a right for an employer's reference when they leave their job, and employers are not allowed to put anything negative into it.

The effect is that there is a catalog of positive phrases that have negative meanings -- classic example is, "they endeavored to meet requirements", which translates as "they never once actually met the requirements". Or, "all colleagues appreciated their warm nature" -- "they had sex with all of them".

Jan Niklas Fingerle

@ysegrim
But ... references still have to be truthful, and courts know those catalogues as well. Employers will code the truth as described, yes, but if they try to badmouth you in an untruthful way using these codes, that won't fly when challenged in court.

@fesshole

🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱

@fesshole

Out of curiosity was this an NDA you had to sign when they hired you, or an NDA they tried to get you to sign after they hired you?

GwenTheKween :verifiedtrans: :neofox_nom_verified:

@fesshole employer heard someone go "I can't complain" and took it literally

Maltimore

@fesshole sounds like it's pretty disparaging to say to others that they made you sign this NDA; therefore you may be legally in hot water 😅
Checkmate atheists

Supportive Tree-based lifeform

@fesshole you could also rephrase it as though it were positive:

"our company is an industry leader in high turnover rates"

"Our company is a competitive investment; we use over 30 employment productivity metrics to ensure employees do not dilly dally with things like 'lives' and 'families'"

Óscar Morales Vivó

@fesshole this is like the old joke about life under totalitarianism.

“So, how are things under the Glorious Communist Revolution?”

“Oh, you know… we can’t complain”

Mark Whybird

@MyLittleMetroid @fesshole This whole thing reminded me of an ancient Wizard of Id comic that has stuck with me:

Some dignitary is being shown around the kingdom by the king, and he asks some peasants what life is like for them. “Can’t complain”, they all reply. “Ha ha, why not?” He jokingly responds.

“It’s forbidden.”

Alan Hicks

@fesshole
It's almost always possible to say the impossible 👏

@FourQ ♿

@fesshole Previous employer made everyone sign the new contract, earlier starts, finishing later, tighter controls, change to KPI's, stricter conditions. The lot. A handful of us didn't sign it. They couldn't make us. Most learnt too late. Management were furious but their hands were tied because only the new contract gave them the power to take action.
They fucking hated us!

Frang :veripawed4:

@fesshole "I am contractually obligated not to say things like <list of things that are wrong with the place>"

John Breen

@fesshole When I sign such things, I add the letters "UD" to my name, indicating "Under Duress". So if I ever have to explain it to a judge, I can explain "that was signed Under Duress - they were going to fire me if I did not sign, and my family would die. So duress - invalid contract".
#MadLawyer

0x575446

@jab01701mid @fesshole Not sure if the advice I got was true or not, but I always ask in some verifiable way (i.e., via email) if it's negotiable. If they say it isn't, then it's harder for them to claim that it was offered in good faith.

zweifeln

@fesshole It makes me happy seeing this post because my actual boss boosted it.

GFJacobs Is Still Masking

@fesshole

That's the "Streisand" effect in action.

Well played.

Aleksander

@fesshole @fritzoids OpenAI NDAs prohibit you from mentioning their existence

Sayar Tyler :fediverse:

@fesshole Fun fact about any contract: They're not binding if you move to a country with no extradition treaty. ;)

Miguel Filipe

@fesshole you do you, but at that point, if this an ethical matter you should quit

kccqzy

@fesshole @gsuberland Usually these clauses (or the entire NDA) come with an expiration date. A new hire had such a clause and he told us when that NDA would expire. We then scheduled a meeting one day after the expiration to talk about it.

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