Gregory's Server@DrDanMarshall
In addition to rejecting the notion of a "free market" altogether, the issue of inequality is not simply a result of market dynamics, but rather a systemic problem inherent to capitalism itself. The accumulation of wealth and power in the hands of a few is not an unintended consequence, but a fundamental feature of capitalist systems, which is why I believe progressive taxation would be insufficient in addressing the root causes of inequality.
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@DrDanMarshall @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom And my take is that while redistribution would tend to reset the inequality clock back to zero, that clock will start ticking again the instant the dust settles unless there is progressive taxation or something that performs a similar role. Would love to be proven wrong. A Robin Hood scheme takes political will to establish and maintain, but universal social programs are more politically stable than "welfare" programs that directly benefit only a minority. @DrDanMarshall The problem with universal social programs within a Capitalism is that such programs can still perpetuate hierarchical structures and also fail to address the root causes of poverty and inequality. @Radical_EgoCom You are correct progressive taxation and UBIs won't eliminate hierarchies. But they would at least massively reduce them. And the thesis I am arguing for is that economic hierarchies would re-emerge in an anarcho-socialist society in the absence of progressive taxation, or some similar thing that performs a similar function. @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom The main constraint on progressive taxation and social spending to reduce economic inequality is political will. Also, social spending could powerfully affect *other* hierarchies. Child, elder care subsidies, public housing makes it easier for abused wives to leave their husbands. Individualistic social spending from the bureaucratic state makes personalistic religious charity less important. Etc. @DrDanMarshall @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom As a thought experiment, imagine progressive wealth taxation was taken to the limit, and every single individual had an equal amount of wealth, therefore an equal share of the means of production. (There might be a difference of incomes, resulting in unequal shares of the means of consumption, but that's a side issue.) @Radical_EgoCom Let's further say individuals pooled their wealth into small voluntary mutual aid funds, and decided how to invest or donate their wealth collectively. Further, workshops are (directly?) democratic, workers get 60% of the vote at the meetings, investors get 40% and play an advisory role. @Radical_EgoCom How would this differ from individualist anarcho-socialism or whatever version of anarchism you're evangelizing? Assuming that the progressive taxation is done by a magic fairy instead of the state's use of force, maybe. Honest question that, how would the two or three hypothetical societies differ? @DrDanMarshall @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom We *could* ensure equal shares of the means of consumption, but that would also eliminate the ability of the market to allocate scarce forms of labor! :D I leave it to you to propose an alternative method, but I'm okay with stipulating "a magic fairy does it" for the purposes of this thought experiment. Investors *might* have a disproportionate influence at a single firm, if they decide to put all of eggs in one basket. But since everybody has equal wealth... @Radical_EgoCom the investors would have the same power over society as a whole as the workers themselves. (And the investors would also *be* workers, either at the same firm or a different one.) @DrDanMarshall 1. **Equal shares of the means of consumption**: Ensuring equal access to resources doesn't necessarily mean distributing them equally; it means making them collectively owned and managed. 2. **Market allocation of labor**: Markets, as I see it, perpetuate inequalities and exploitation. Instead, I propose decentralized planning and/or participatory democracy to organize production and distribution based on need rather than profit. @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom On point three, if a mutual aid society invests in a cooperative workshop, what say, if any, should that give the mutual aid society in the internal decision of the workshop? I'm basing the 60/40 split on what Piketty says about how the share of national income gets split between capital and labor, btw. Ain't no reason capitalists should get 100% of the say, but it is their resources, so... @Radical_EgoCom I was basing unequal shares of the means of consumption on something Marx said in his Critique of the Gotha Programme. Was testing to see if you would *also* be okay with it, guess not :D How exactly to allocate scarce forms of labor, even within a single household, seems like a Non-Trivial Problem which I really don't want to go into right now. Is it okay if I chalk it up to magical fairies for the time being? @Radical_EgoCom Free market dynamics do *not* contribute to economic equality, to the extent that a slogan of mine is "nature abhors a free market." The free market is an idealized model of voluntary exchange between independent collectives (households, firms, communes, royal palaces). A working hypothesis of mine is that exchanges between independent collectives are best modeled as a market. Would be open to a counterexample, an alternative model that does not result in inequality. @Radical_EgoCom David Graeber's Debt: The First 5000 Years strongly suggests to me that there is a limit to how large a collective can be before an internal market develops. (The evolution of actuarial currencies within palace economies.) And inequality in the market will create inequalities within the independent collectives, since the labor of certain individuals will be more valued than others. @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom Then what is the alternative? How would exchange between communes and workshops be managed and negotiated? How would a workshop allocate its output, assuming that there is a limit to how much it can produce? (Graeber's "baseline communism" is a form of mutual aid, but it can *also* be modeled as a slightly constrained market exchange. Same for his example in a different book of gambling as a form of exchange.) @DrDanMarshall @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom Allow me to reframe things, to make the argument that "market" exchanges lead to inequality more clear. Exchanges can be perceived as equal or unequal. Marginal utility theory plus differences in elasticity of supply implies that certain commodities will be more valuable than others, despite less labor being invested in them per unit. @Radical_EgoCom Graeber's baseline communism provides an example of roughly "equal" exchange. I'll give you my ax today, you give me a cup of sugar tomorrow. Chronic moochers are eventually "de-federated," households that demand interest on their loans are reprimanded, eventually de-federated. Threat of de-federation plus desire for insurance motivate participation in the system. @Radical_EgoCom Threat of de-federation and the desire for insurance motivates participation in the system. However, if investment in the internal capital of the household is more profitable than accepting a given external exchange is likely to be, motivation to say "nope, sorry, gave at the office." And the richer the household, the better it is at self-insuring. @Radical_EgoCom Unequal exchanges do happen, but they are gifts, exchanging economic capital for political capital. If the gift is too large for the recipient to ever pay back, the recipient becomes the donor's "slave," to some extent. So how could equal exchange between communes not lead to unequal investments in internal capital? How could unequal exchanges not become slave-making gifts? @DrDanMarshall @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom The problem isn't exchanges *within* communes, but exchanges *between* communes. An individual commune *might* be able to function as a single household, but it would be pushing the size limit. Equality *might* exist within a "household," so long as it's an autarky or there is no division of labor. But when you have exchanges between "households" and division of labor, the exchanges will *resemble* a market, and economic inequalities *will* appear. @Radical_EgoCom (Equality within an independent collective would be a lot easier if it has no division of labor *and* it's an autarky, but I think it *might* be possible with just one of those conditions.) @DrDanMarshall @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom How could decisions at the federal level affect the internal decision making of individual communes? And, if the federation *could* strongly affect the internal decision making of individual communes, what would prevent that from becoming a form of coercion? @DrDanMarshall @DrDanMarshall @DrDanMarshall Decisions at the federal level should be made through consensus among all participating communes, ensuring that no commune exercises undue influence over others, with mechanisms to prevent coercion, such as transparent decision-making processes, equal representation, and safeguards against the centralization of capital. @Radical_EgoCom What do you mean by "consensus"? Would a rich commune be able to veto a measure? Or would it be more like "accept the majority decision or there's the door"? If a commune proved stingy, would the federation be able to authorize the seizure of its capital by force? What other ways could we prevent the centralization of capital? (And, yes, poorer communes would be more vulnerable to de-federation than rich ones.) @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom I have found the clarification of our positions to be helpful. Two spots we couldn't agree was on, essentially, how egoistic humans (and collectives of humans) are, and the related question of how universal nepotism is. Those questions would have to be answered by empirical investigation, so we can't do it here. @Radical_EgoCom Beyond that, I think my central thesis can be boiled down to this: Do you think purely voluntary solidarity between one commune and another could be so strong that a prosperous commune could be convinced to help a fellow commune that has suffered a disaster, not only to some decent minimum of getting back on their feet, but back to economic *equality* with the first one? Or would it require a degree of coercion equivalent to taxation? @Radical_EgoCom The problem with "solidarity, cooperation, and mutual aid" is that it operates by the *exactly* same rules and for *exactly* the same motivations as baseline communism, only at the level of communes instead of households. Whenever a commune is asked for something by another commune, it would have a choice: Fulfill the ask, or invest in their own internal capital, thereby becoming happier and more productive. @Radical_EgoCom Most communes would usually fulfill a goodly proportion of asks, because they don't want to get de-federated, lose their trade partners, lose their insurance. And there would probably be a weak form of progressive taxation on these exchanges, since rich communes would probably be expected to pay more. But that would come at the cost of the richer communes accumulating political capital. And the "taxation" would probably still not be enough to prevent the centralization of capital @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom Very interesting conversation, thank you. By inclination, I prefer a collective ownership of goods and a consensual model of decision-making as a means for achieving equality among humans. I was startled to read that when the AMOC stalled at the end of the last ice age and people all over the Middle East starved, those who shared resources all died out. Meanwhile, in those little groups where some had more and others less, some survived. Inequality won. Ugh. @northernlights @Radical_EgoCom Not familiar with that research, sources? I like one model of organizing a household, and I think it's a good model for a society: Each member is granted a decent minimum but those who bring money to the table (or provide a valuable internal service) are given a greater share of disposable income to use at their discretion. Beats having to ask the collective to make you a sex toy! @DrDanMarshall @Radical_EgoCom John L. Brooke, Climate Change and the Course of Human History: A Rough Journey (Cambridge University Press, 2014), chapter on agricultural revolutions. @northernlights @Radical_EgoCom I'll put it on my reading list, but chances are I won't get to it this century. Sigh. Sounds similar to an Against The Grain book I have read. Its theory was that agriculture led to centralization because farmers are easier to conquer, they're tied to the land. Plus, primal civilization probably crashed several times and this was basically a good thing, survivors escaped to the hills. |
@Radical_EgoCom
Monopolies work to make supplies even more inelastic, and free markets are "spherical cows." But free market dynamics are a *sufficient* cause.
The problem of getting progressive taxation through a legislature controlled by plutocratic lobbyists is a non-trivial one. But Piketty gives one example of it working: the emergency taxation of WWII.
My objection to anarcho-socialism is that I don't see a true way of maintaining economic equality *without* progressive taxation.
@Radical_EgoCom
Monopolies work to make supplies even more inelastic, and free markets are "spherical cows." But free market dynamics are a *sufficient* cause.
The problem of getting progressive taxation through a legislature controlled by plutocratic lobbyists is a non-trivial one. But Piketty gives one example of it working: the emergency taxation of WWII.