Gregory's ServerTell me you've never helped seniors with tech, without telling me you've never helped seniors with tech.
And I don't just mean the person answering this question. I also mean whoever decided to remove this option.
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79 comments
@paul_ipv6 @tychotithonus It's often management that push back against accessibility. Even otherwise relatively good managers, and even when it's arguably a legal requirement (sadly often a legal grey area). Thankfully I had some spare time before I left at the end of my most recent front end project and made a decent effort at accessibility for our app. And yes, "use a two finger touchpad" isn't an acceptable answer. There are often good medical reasons why people use a particular input device.  while we never seem to have a wealth of good UI/UX folks, we do have them. yet, so many companies don't listen to them (or to their customers). with an aging population, we need more attention to accessibility, not less.  @paul_ipv6 @matthewtoad43 @tychotithonus Incredibly narrow scroll bars are a pain in the arse too, I assume they only end up that way for wanky design reasons.  @timrichards @tychotithonus @paul_ipv6 @matthewtoad43 @timrichards Yup, despise this design choice so much. time waster to locate amidst all the layers of scroll bars and then to use the one I want with touch or mouse. @paul_ipv6 Absolutely this!!!! Thank you for saying it! This is the thing I've had the largest issue with while teaching about our need for tech in the field, dealing with the fact that tech/application designers are user blind.  @paul_ipv6 @tychotithonus That's not to say they can't learn... The nursing home bowling team learned how to hook up a Wii to a TV and get into Wii bowling pretty darn quick. Motivation is a hell of a drug, and they were out to beat the other nursing home's team. @MontgomeryGator Collaboration is wonderful, where that is usable. I really like this. We are used to listen, as dev or techie people, something like: users are just idiot!! But, the thing is, the most cases UI is not enough intuitive nor people (specially older ones) have help/assitance to use technologies.  @paul_ipv6 @tychotithonus working for a national center on low-incidence disabilities over 20 years ago has forever changed my design and development. And that stemmed from very little user testing and observations. I don’t think it really takes much to see needs and make shifts. But one does have to be willing to spend at least some time working with users who have varying needs.  @paul_ipv6 @tychotithonus it's a nice idea but until those people are a significant enough percent of the userbase it will always be an afterthought
@tychotithonus They also fundementally misunderstood the initial post. It;s a trackball “scrolling with two fingers” isn;t an option at all   @tychotithonus ARGH I have a trackball WITH a scroll wheel (Logitech M575!) and I STILL want scrollbars. Complete scrollbars WITH the arrow widgets that I can click on. "Grandma" is being totally reasonable in her expectations and that answer is rubbish.  @yakkoj @tychotithonus  @SmartmanApps @yakkoj @tychotithonus Look in Settings → Accessibility → Visual effects → Always show scrollbars (wording might be slightly different, I don't have English Windows here, so I'm translating back). This'll make the scrollbars always visible. Huh - I don't see this option in my ChromeOS settings - I also searched for 'scroll', 'scrollback', 'scrolling', 'page', etc. @tychotithonus @SmartmanApps @yakkoj Sorry, this was for Windows only. I never used ChromeOS, so no idea if it supports this. @jernej__s @tychotithonus That is some solid advice though in the image. A few years back I force migrated my 80 yr old mother (then 76) from Windows to Mac. She now shows me how to do things specific to the mac, but cool nonetheless.  @jeff @tychotithonus I mean, it's actually not good advice except for "something will have to change." You don't just use a trackball because it looks cool - alternative input devices are usually chosen because of physical issues with the default input. If you need to keep your wrist at a certain angle because of pain or control difficulties, changing to an entirely different plane will not be the solution. Giving up computing, or getting a different, less hostile system, will be.   @tychotithonus I'm not old, but I'm old enough to have a hard time using computers that aren't mine. Websites with non-standard fiddly and tiny controls are also a problem. I hate where we are in terms of average usability. Everybody has to do things differently, making even common tasks a learning experience in every new app/site. @tychotithonus also, I hate Kevin (Snails) Diamond Product Expert. Telling an old lady who uses a trackball to "scroll with two fingers gently on the touchpad". I will fight Kevin. It's on sight. @tychotithonus Why did they assume she had a touchpad? There are external trackball mice. Also, they're a dickhead.  @tychotithonus@infosec.exchange What happens when all your engineers and QA are able-bodied people with abnormally good tech skills between 20 and 50 years old.  @tychotithonus i set up a gamepad for my father near the end of his life to send scroll messages using the analog stick. really hope at the api level at least people stand their ground and keep this kind of customization possible.  Back in 2010, I had issues with seniors whose fingerprints were so worn thin they couldn’t use the fingerprint scanners to clock in. It’s fascinating and frustrating that people forget that, unless they’re unlucky, they too will be an old and have the coordination and physiological issues they disdain elders for having, @Aphrodite @tychotithonus the older I get, the more I notice design patterns that are hostile to anyone that doesn't have perfect <30yo physiology. I wonder what I built in my youth like this? I did an unusual amount of manual labor last summer and the fingerprint scanners of my laptop and phone stopped working for me. @Aphrodite @tychotithonus Also affects some cancer patients on chemotherapy, see 'hand-foot syndrome'. @Aphrodite @tychotithonus I wonder how much an issue this is with other jobs in which people tend to lose their fingerprints - ie. if you work with chemicals, losing your fingerprints due to accidents is considered expected. it also sometimes happens with construction jobs.
sure they eventually return (takes a few months) but it makes you wonder if anything was ever designed with that in mind. @tychotithonus @swelljoe "The users will have to change what they want to fit our poor interface choices" is never going to be a strong position, either. @tychotithonus I'm not anywhere near being a senior, but I get hand pain often and sometimes I cannot use my TouchPad no matter how much I want to. For seniors it must be even worse.  @tychotithonus This design mistake has been made numerous times. It has a high cost in terms of people not scrolling at all because the page looks complete and there’s no scrollbar. Ever since Flash, we’ve had to fight invisible scrollbars. So tiresome.  @tychotithonus I love how it's the recommended answer not because the questioner found it helpful, but rather because some other member of the Kool aid Krew decided to mark it as such. @womble @tychotithonus It also doesn't show 👎 count, and it's definitely not because nobody downvoted.  @tychotithonus It’s almost as if the factory farm doesn’t care about the welfare of the livestock or something. @tychotithonus How to get a IS thing to work is literally a weekly conversation I have with my parents. @tychotithonus Google does this ALL the damn time, too. They constantly just randomly remove accessibility features and flags just for the sake of them being "old" (not part of a component being refactored/deprecated, mind you, just like "well, this is code that hasn't been touched in a year, better axe it for Reasons™") It often feels like product features are being dictated by the Wizard of Oz (from "The Wiz") who just makes arbitrary aesthetic changes that everyone is expected to conform to. Regularly disrupting the UI gets in the way of people being ably to use their computers and phones. Imagine if the dashboard on a car, or the controls on a stove or oven, or the buttons on a TV remote get reorganised every several months? > Imagine if the dashboard on a car, or the controls on a stove or oven, or the buttons on a TV remote get reorganised every several months? Doesn't Tesla do this regularly (and if you've never been in one, there are almost no physical controls, just a large touchscreen in the center console)? The dashboard of a Tesla looks like it was designed by a teenage gamer who has never had to drive a real car on a road.   @tychotithonus Completely side from the well-addressed lack of thought toward accessibility, being told that the way I want to use something is the wrong way is a sure way to get my to find something else to use. Edit for clarity: by "something else to use" I mean a replacement for that which the manufacturer thinks has to be used in a certain way. In this case, a replacement for a Chromebook. @tychotithonus It's unconscionable that products a) don't have a user testing audience that includes unfamiliar or uncomfortable users b) don't actually have their engineers front up to answer public bugs, they throw unpaid volunteers (also wtf) under the bus to dismiss concerns @tursiae @tychotithonus I fully agree with a and mostly agree with b - I'm not sure it should be an engineer. Some of these will be engineered bugs, some will be bad UX, some will be from poor documentation and users deserve to speak to someone whose job is simply helping them @tychotithonus yeah chrome is really bad about this kinda crap.
Really don't get why Firefox went in the same direction, but there you can still permanently enable them (and keep their old look) in about:config.  @tychotithonus I don't want to trivialise what is a fairly serious accessibility issue and a lack of regard for it bordering on ableism, but modern scrollbars (on all platforms) are just so bad. For the love of God can we please just have proper scrollbars back? It would solve so many problems.  @hedders @tychotithonus Yes please. I’m young, I have no motricity problem, and I still hate them. @hedders @tychotithonus On Windows at least there's an accessibility option to always show them. @tychotithonus people who remove accessibility features should get the guillotine. @tychotithonus don't get me started on scrollbars! They've become worse and worse over the last 40 or so years. Not everyone uses a trackpad or a tablet.  "Something will have to change." Yeah, the flag will have to go back in. Was it taking up too much room or something? WTF. @tychotithonus I can see Chrome's accessibility standards have slipped significantly since I departed. Alas.  @tychotithonus If your changes to the product are so amazing put them behind an opt-in toggle switch. Then you can count out how many users turn it on, use it for about 40 seconds and then your bullshit feature off again.  @tychotithonus even to just have the sheer physical ability to scroll with two fingers on a touchpad… 🤬 Personally I stick to the IBM nipple and don’t even have a touchpad or mouse wheel. Fuck Google. Fuck Chromium. Fuck hiding scrollbars. @tychotithonus @kawa And not just seniors. Scrollbars give me useful information about where I am in a window: am I 50% of the way down? 75% down? Is there a column of information to the right I'm not seeing in this view? Give me back my scrollbars. @tychotithonus oh my God this is awful on every possible level And it's not just downwards hostile towards seniors, but just a step back in accessibility as a whole.  @tychotithonus most people a certain age are more likely to abandon the technology altogether than change the way they use it. (I'm getting close to that, and I'm not even 40 yet)  @tychotithonus @HauntedOwlbear The solution is to help her switch to Firefox, which respects the user's accessibility settings in the OS. If you have "Always show scroll bars" turned on in the OS, Firefox never ever hides the scroll bars. Which is also useful for bypassing those awful modal popups web designers seem to love for some inadequately-explored reason. :) @tychotithonus Absolutely yes! This whole situation makes my brain itch… Scrollbars (designed properly) convey information to the user about ‘out of window’ content and how much of it and where it is. Auto-hiding them is a design-crime against humanity. The original Apple HIG had this absolutely right.  I was about to rage-comment, but it seems the #fediverse already took care of it 😆 RIP Usability, long live gormless dandyism! @tychotithonus This is infuriating. I've worked in tech since 1995 and for the last maybe ten years or so, I've hated it more and more every day.  @tychotithonus @tychotithonus and it's ironic considering that when I can, I either use the mouse wheel or the scrollbar, as trackpad scrolling is not only not really convenient but it's also a bit tiresome @tychotithonus Grandma should switch to Firefox, which has an option to always show scrollbars. You don't need to be a grandma to want/need scrollbars. Removing them is bad, arrogant, design. |
@tychotithonus
more and more as i try to help my mom deal with all the "new features" in her computer and phone that don't work for anyone with any sight, eye/hand, or skin chemistry issues, i'm back to this:
'no developer of any device software/OS that human beings use is allowed to touch a single line of code until they have spent 6 months doing user support at an assisted care facility'