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Max Leibman

@shantini I’m gonna need a bigger boost button for this one…

16 Dec 2023 at 4:19 | Wall-to-wall | Open on mastodon.social
18 comments
M.S. Bellows, Jr.
Max Leibman

@msbellows Neither I nor the OP said anything about tolerating bad actors or bad behavior. I like what she said because it calls attention to Fediverse partisans’ obliviousness to the tradeoffs in the designs of this place—like how people talk about defederation like it's a clean, simple, pure solution, as though it has no negative consequences.

(EDIT: The first version of this reply started out unnecessarily aggressive, so I took it out, and I apologize. The rest I stand by.)

16 Dec 2023 at 4:55 | Open on mastodon.social
Max Leibman

@msbellows I don't know the OP's intent, but I hear it not just in the context of blocking Threads (fine, whatever, do or don’t; I don't like Meta, either). Rather, what I see reflected there is the complete asshattery of people who've said, “We need to block any instance that doesn't block Threads!” (or even further). Which is a burn-the-village-to-save-the-village sentiment if I've ever seen one.

16 Dec 2023 at 4:55 | Open on mastodon.social
M.S. Bellows, Jr.

@maxleibman That last part's fair enough; my point is that openness need not extend to fully opening the gates to people who merely pretend to embrace openness as a ploy to destroy it (which is what I believe Meta intends to do).

But you and I? We're good! Thanks for being thoughtful!

16 Dec 2023 at 5:50 | Open on c.im
🌅 Ben Soule ⛱️:coffefied:

@msbellows @maxleibman
Federation will never die. There will always be pockets of resistance (clusters of aligned instances), if worse comes to worse; and we can always build back.

16 Dec 2023 at 6:03 | Open on mstdn.social
Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:

@retrohondajunki @msbellows @maxleibman
Just wanted to chime in, as the moderator of OP's instance, I don't believe in the paradox of tolerance because I don't believe in tolerance. Persecuted groups seldom do anything I would have to "tolerate", and if I did have an issue, that would be a me problem. Meanwhile, I refuse to tolerate people who demand that everyone else go along with their insane exclusionary worldviews.

That said, as I've been posting, our policy with them is currently not to block until they do something that makes TechHub a worst place to be. I just don't see what that could be if all they're trying to do is get some actual organic post activity on their lame duck network of ads and influencers.

@retrohondajunki @msbellows @maxleibman
Just wanted to chime in, as the moderator of OP's instance, I don't believe in the paradox of tolerance because I don't believe in tolerance. Persecuted groups seldom do anything I would have to "tolerate", and if I did have an issue, that would be a me problem. Meanwhile, I refuse to tolerate people who demand that everyone else go along with their insane exclusionary worldviews.

16 Dec 2023 at 7:14 | Open on techhub.social
🌅 Ben Soule ⛱️:coffefied:

@Raccoon @msbellows @maxleibman
I'd give the Zuck some credit for what it's worth, he's been good at identifying future trends and he sees the Fediverse as the future. Even Blue sky is creating a Federation of it's own. How will our Fediverse be shaped by Meta as you've said is still unknown. Instances will still be able to implement its own rules and safeguards and be distinct. I see activitypub growing to meet the demands of threats to its servers in the Fedi.

16 Dec 2023 at 7:42 | Open on mstdn.social
Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:

@retrohondajunki @msbellows @maxleibman
Right, this will be something of a trial by fire for both Fedi and Threads. That said, this is probably a good time to remind everyone to consider donating or volunteering now, so the admins have more to prepare with. Also to remind everyone that the report button exists and that staff encourages people to use that if they see people breaking the rules, including cases like misinformation.

16 Dec 2023 at 17:29 | Open on techhub.social
Vorsos

@Raccoon Why is Threads exempt from your long list of instances suspended for breaking techhub rules 2, 3, and 5?
The only difference between Threads and, say, skinheads dot social is plausible deniability.

16 Dec 2023 at 15:50 | Open on beige.party
Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:

@Vorsos
I'm aware they have moderation issues, I'm not aware of the extent of them or how badly it will affect us here. Why, is their Nazi problem worse then I realize?

Pretty much all the servers we are blocking are either sanctioning content we don't allow here (eg Cheese Pizza) or people who will harass our users (racists), so if that's the kind of traffic they bring, yeah, they will get banned like any other big Nazi server. I think the only nuance of the policy here is that we're giving them a chance to fuck it up themselves.

That is a good point though, maybe I should go look further into just how bad things are there: if they're just going to flood our feed with bullshit, you're right, there's no reason trying...

I think this comes down to what makes this place so much better than a for-profit network: we are actually users, so we have an actual incentive to make it a good place to be.

@Vorsos
I'm aware they have moderation issues, I'm not aware of the extent of them or how badly it will affect us here. Why, is their Nazi problem worse then I realize?

Pretty much all the servers we are blocking are either sanctioning content we don't allow here (eg Cheese Pizza) or people who will harass our users (racists), so if that's the kind of traffic they bring, yeah, they will get banned like any other big Nazi server. I think the only nuance of the policy here is that we're giving them...

16 Dec 2023 at 17:45 | Open on techhub.social
Vorsos

@Raccoon A good litmus test for this is if you would suspend a small instance where right-wing hate groups PragerU, Libs of TikTok, and Moms4Liberty are welcome.

WelshPixie failed that test when she effectively said (paraphrasing), “We protect dot art users from harmful servers, except the large ones because reaching customers is more important.”

16 Dec 2023 at 18:07 | Open on beige.party
Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: replied to Vorsos

@Vorsos
To play devil's advocate for her, there is a difference between a little server that was literally made so that Nazis would have a place to post, and a server that is so big that posts start slipping through the cracks, simply because of volume. I know one of my issues I had when I had an account there was that she had blocked Kolektiva because I guess there was "too much harassment" coming out of it, despite it being a large server.

Let's not forget that Mastodon.social, where the vast majority of new users come in through, is the literal elephant in the room when it comes to this concept. Moderation is weak there because they pretty much have to take all good faith users, and their moderation team can't keep up with the volume of posts. About half of the reports we get here are on things from that server, but we're willing to deal with that because the majority are good actors.

@Vorsos
To play devil's advocate for her, there is a difference between a little server that was literally made so that Nazis would have a place to post, and a server that is so big that posts start slipping through the cracks, simply because of volume. I know one of my issues I had when I had an account there was that she had blocked Kolektiva because I guess there was "too much harassment" coming out of it, despite it being a large server.

16 Dec 2023 at 18:19 | Open on techhub.social
Robert Link replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:

@Raccoon @Vorsos Let threads in and watch that majority of good actors evaporate.

16 Dec 2023 at 19:35 | Open on mastodon.social
Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

@maxleibman @msbellows Hardly any people have actually said that, though. The anecdote just seems to be being used as a stick to beat people who advocate for blocking a party known to be harmful, and to derail discussion around that.

16 Dec 2023 at 8:35 | Open on mas.to
maisylover

@msbellows @maxleibman @shantini wow. I have been curious about this but haven’t been able to put it into words until reading this. Thanks!

16 Dec 2023 at 5:41 | Open on mastodon.social
Janne Ojaniemi
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