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Here's how the "Ship of Theseus" page looked in July 2003 when it was first created! Since then, the article has been edited 1792 times. 0% of its original phrases remain.

131 comments
Mori

@wikipedia And yet, the Ship of Theseus page remains, thus proving a bird in the hand is worth two stitches in time.

sentinian

@wikipedia is the page even the same page anymore?

aismallard
@sentinian @wikipedia the title and page ID are the same ๐Ÿ˜›
HollieK

@sentinian @wikipedia Yes, it's still the Ship of Theseus page. ๐Ÿ™‚

DELETED

@sentinian @wikipedia a narrow vision. Is the language of the page the same? Are the underlying protocols of the internet? The optical nerves?

Dan Jones ๐Ÿฅฅ๐ŸŒด

Am I the same person I was when I was created over four decades ago? Definitely not!

@sentinian@neovibe.app @wikipedia@wikis.world

Simon Zerafa :donor: :verified:

@wikipedia

Has all of the pieces of the original article been repaired and recycled into a new article? ๐Ÿ™‚๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ

Andrew

@simonzerafa @wikipedia have you not seen james somerton's ship of theseus video?

keschi / cache :blobCat_in_box:

@andrewt @simonzerafa @wikipedia no, at the time of you writing this, seeing it would be impossible as james somerton had been utterly destroyed by hbomberguy, or rather, his plagiarism, in which his only contributions are that he injected the hatred of women.

James ๐Ÿฆ‰ #FBPE :europe:

@wikipedia Ah but the title, metadata, and database id is. Check and mate Wikipedia.

TerrorBite :veripawed3:

@freequaybuoy Then consider the following scenario: I own a boat. Over time, I've replaced every single part of the boat, from the sails to the hull, but it still has the same name (title), the same registration number in the Register of Shipping (database id), and the same overall measurements (metadata). By your own argument, it's still the same boat.

@wikipedia

Joe Breuer

@TerrorBite @freequaybuoy @wikipedia that actually appears to be how those centuries old wooden temples and other structures (at a minimum) in Japan work.

James ๐Ÿฆ‰ #FBPE :europe:

@jmbreuer @TerrorBite @wikipedia See also the Great Mosque of Djennรฉ, which has had its adobe composition replaced many times, yet is still the Great Mosque of Djennรฉ.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mo

James ๐Ÿฆ‰ #FBPE :europe:

@TerrorBite @wikipedia Ah but it is, but not by that argument alone. Objects' distinctions don't really exist, or rather, they are subjective. Where does an object start and end? Are the molecules, atoms, electrons, protons, neutrons, quarks and gluons the same over time? Does it matter? Objects are categories that we assign, based on our particular scale, perception, memory and knowledge. Therefore, Trigger's Broom *is* still Trigger's Broom. Here's Michael for more:
youtu.be/fXW-QjBsruE?si=tClM7w

@TerrorBite @wikipedia Ah but it is, but not by that argument alone. Objects' distinctions don't really exist, or rather, they are subjective. Where does an object start and end? Are the molecules, atoms, electrons, protons, neutrons, quarks and gluons the same over time? Does it matter? Objects are categories that we assign, based on our particular scale, perception, memory and knowledge. Therefore, Trigger's Broom *is* still Trigger's Broom. Here's Michael for more:
youtu.be/fXW-QjBsruE?si=tClM7w

binchicken

@freequaybuoy what people fail to realise is that i have been collecting discarded ship parts, and can now build a second and extremely fucked up ship.

@TerrorBite @wikipedia

Julien

@freequaybuoy
I guess the server where it was initially stored has been replaced, and the db migrated a bunch of times. Are they really the same?
@wikipedia

James ๐Ÿฆ‰ #FBPE :europe:

@julienbidoret @wikipedia The title, metadata and id would be the same regardless of how many replacements or migrations there were.

Brian Hawthorne

@freequaybuoy @julienbidoret @wikipedia Just like the name โ€œShip of Theseusโ€ (in Greek of course) remained the same with the original ship.

James ๐Ÿฆ‰ #FBPE :europe:

@bhawthorne @julienbidoret @wikipedia Yeah! I think it comes down to agreement. The crew may have replaced all the parts but still sleep and sail on her. They may tell a merchant to load the spices on her, pointing to The Ship of Theseus and they would be none the wiser and agree that is indeed The Ship of Theseus. The knowledge that all parts have been replaced is metadata really, an outside text, requiring additional knowledge. Hence, "Truth is a community."

0x10f

@wikipedia Ah, the curiosities of our time! I doubt previous generations felt the need to ponder such things, let alone had a word for the concept. (Wikipedia didn't even exist before this century.)

Basedave

@0x10f @wikipedia you know the ship of Theseus is a concept from Ancient Greek right?

Weltzeitgeist

@basedave @0x10f @wikipedia You know the word irony is a concept from Ancient Greek right?

Leon Bambrick

@wackJackle @basedave @0x10f @wikipedia pretty sure irony predates them Ancient Greeks. Never heard of the Iron Age??

rhempel

@secretgeek @wackJackle @basedave @0x10f @wikipedia Ah the good old Iron Age :-) Will history look back on us and call this the Moron Age?

ideaPDish

@wikipedia
Of course, i gotta ask, is it the same article?

Mr. Completely

@wikipedia this is the most perfect moment. Thank you

DELETED

@wikipedia

Where the original telos was to provide a means of seafaring transportation for Theseus, the telos then became to preserve the ship as an ends in itself. Thus the form of the ship became the new telos. In this way the replacement of material the was (con)forming to the new telos was in keeping with the original ship.

DELETED

@wikipedia

What is interesting about the Ship of Theseus are the different Ends as they Reduce to a Single Disposition. One was intended for the transport of a heroic endeavor, another to memorialize this heroism. In this way it would seemingly reduce to the emulation of what is thought to be heroic for that society.

I say this because were someone to change the toot, and by toot, I meant ship, it would arguably change the disposition of memory and its intended emulation.

ๆœฑ่Ž‰ๅจ… ้…ท

@Artivist I'm a materialist: is the ship's worldline free from interruptions and forks? @wikipedia

DELETED

@hackbunny @wikipedia

It would be seen as symbol for the existing infrastructure set in by the Theseus regime, and so as from a materialist vantage forming a normative disposition to future endeavors.

DELETED

@hackbunny @wikipedia

Lastly this speaks to positivistic evidence a la Borges' 'Tlรถn Uqbar and Orbis Tertius', or similarly via the Damnatio Memoriae under several Materialist Regimes, Stalin comes to mind.

That they who control the 2nd Level Evidence control the 'Memory' to that Normative Disposition.

DELETED

@hackbunny @wikipedia

Let's break it down another way. The way that you and your accomplices try and cover up the people that you murdered is done through the servers and the constellation of materialities comprising of discourse.

Hence your link with the deputy gangs. The fact that you can then use the differentiated representations of digitized 'proof' then allows you to commit an act of erasure as social proof so that you can continue to torture and murder American Citizens.

Joe

@wikipedia I suspect that this was noticed before the article had completely removed all of the original text, motivating editors to look for synonyms that they could use to replace the remaining original words. So it's kind of a Ship of Thesaurus.

Toni Scott

@not2b @wikipedia
Bravo
๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿป๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿป๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿป๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿป๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿป

Stu Duerson

@not2b @wikipedia

A portmanteau sure to piss off the Minoans!

grahamsz

@wikipedia My employer uses ONE to ship a bunch of stuff and they have a literal ship of Theseus vesselfinder.com/vessels/detai

DHeadshot's Alt

@wikipedia
Has "Trigger's Broom" been affected in the same way but in larger chunks?

PKPs Powerfromspace1

@wikipedia history is written by he or SHE or person beyond the binary who last edits ๐Ÿคช

Matthew Martin

@wikipedia I took all the discarded pieces and reassembled them so it is mine now.

Josh, or whatever

@wikipedia@wikis.world @josh@phocks.eu.org I too, sometimes feel that zero percent of my original makeup exists. :(

OldTurk๐Ÿ—ฝFocus: #FreeAssange

@wikipedia careful! You could start an edit war when someone reinstates the original article saying that it is the true โ€œShip of Theseusโ€ page

shhyou_886

@wikipedia That's such a cool example of, um, a text&editing version of โ€œquineโ€?

Wendy Lady

@wikipedia if AI replaced all human thought processing, then at what point would the historical information no longer be of human intelligence and of truth, now only AI data....and is it now the new dominant intelligence on earth (and beyond)?

Thiago Figueirรณ

@wikipedia whoever the Wikipedia PR person is, they deserve an attaboy/attagirl/attaX for this. ๐Ÿ˜˜๐ŸคŒ

hazelnot :yell:

@thiagocsf @wikipedia the bio says the account is community-run and maintained by four users who I think are admins, or at least two of them are

Melissa Archer :renamon:

@wikipedia Well I think that answers that particular philosophical question.

Peter Brown

@wikipedia exactly the same process occurs in the cells in the human body, continually changing and renewing.
You are not what you were.

Are you still you?

juma asterisco

@peterbrown @wikipedia No. Unfortunately, I became an ancient Greek ship๐Ÿ˜ฉ

Peter Brown

@juma_asterisco @wikipedia we probably all do, because once we return to the Earth, we may then become a tree.

juma asterisco

@peterbrown @wikipedia Germans become pears. Thanks to Theodor Fontane and "Herr von Ribbeck auf Ribbeck im Havelland"

Neil

@wikipedia took me a few moments to realise and appreciate the depth of this toot.

Andrew Herron

@geniodiabolico youโ€™re not the only one with the Ship of Theseus idea ๐Ÿคฃ

@wikipedia

Dave Slusher - Hacker/Maker

@Spyder @wikipedia I looked at the edit history to see if people were doing or had done this. It didn't look like it but could also be my inability to read it properly.

Dave Slusher - Hacker/Maker

@Spyder @wikipedia I saw the post about it now. I was not looking back to 2003, I was taking a much shorter view.

Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle

@wikipedia wow, misread as "July 2023" and was utterly confused

Twobiscuits

@wikipedia The modern version is exactly what would happen if (as some ppl demand) license plates on bicycles were introduced. When is it still the same bike? We have fixed that for cars, but with quite an effort.

Dr John A Stevenson

@wikipedia I first learned of Ship of Theseus when looking up Trigger's Broom, from UK sitcom Only Fools and Horses. It had 17 new heads and 14 new handles.

youtu.be/LAh8HryVaeY?si=51Tjrx

Phil Smith

@wikipedia

In the U.K. this is know as Triggerโ€™s Broom.

Nick Stevens Graphics

@wikipedia

And every single British person will think immediately of Trigger's Broom.

youtube.com/watch?v=LAh8HryVae

Raul

@wikipedia How many atoms of our current molecules in our bodies were present at time T0 when we were born? And how many of the T0 atoms are still within our bodies? Also, does a river become a different river just because water keeps flowing in it?

ร–lbaum

@wikipedia @1HommeAzerty What about the lesser known โ€œShip / Boat / Vessel / Barge / Gondola / Scow of Thesaurusโ€?

Stu Duerson

@wikipedia

First of all, if the ship of Theseus had been built of iron, it would have rusted anyway, and that would have been irony irony.

But more to the point, this is irony enough, in a world where facts and concepts are being rotted with anti-facts and anti-concepts, prompting the need to continually repair words and philosophies.

electricfox

@wikipedia My windows installation was asking me the same question about my computer.

Emma Iller

@electricfox @wikipedia my computer was asking the same thing about the latest windows installation

Gear Admiral

@wikipedia This is why Wikipedia is a great launching off-point, but a horrible source for citation in anything remotely journalistic or academic. I feel similarly about most 21st century dictionaries. No editions anymore -- just endlessly updated content.

Pixin

@wikipedia That is a delightful little fact ๐Ÿ˜†โ€‹

Walrus

@Blort
Rather nicely "meta", isn't it?

Drew Naylor

@wikipedia Just realized that to Windows, my computer is a Ship of Theseus that still is fine with my license somehow even after changing the motherboard and CPU (switched to AMD) where the only original part is the power supply. (I knew but forgot it was a Ship of Theseus already, just never thought about the Windows license part).

mira

@wikipedia is it me or has this post been modified and will undergo the same fate eventually

WarmasterPalak

@wikipedia

The practical application: The human body is made of cells, each of which has a useful period of operation no greater than several years at most, regardless of type or location. Over the course of an average human lifespan, every cell in your body will have been replaced concurrently by new cells at least six times. To end the entire Ship of Theseus stupidity, when did you cease being you?

BibbleCo

@wikipedia ah but the philosophical question has been replaced by Trigger's Broom.
youtu.be/LAh8HryVaeY?si=VxiApd

poldemo

@wikipedia almost prophetic ๐Ÿ˜Š
โ€žSome of its boards rotted and had to be replaced.
After many, many years, many such replacements occurred. Eventually, none of the original boards were present.โ€œ

drobwil

@wikipedia @briankrebs All the same letters, just not necessarily in the same order.

Thomas Staudinger

@wikipedia That's not the ship of Theseus page! Or is it?

Colin

@wikipedia Can we unthank Andeggs for ruining this meme way back in 2006? lol
Second pic shows the final remaining text that existed in the article prior to a rewrite.

Hal

@wikipedia But what about the Dread Pirate Roberts?

rusty

@wikipedia It's come up as a question of identity in people within SF already as a question of when does 'you' cease to be if your body parts are replaced over time, yet for that entire time you maintain the interrupted stream of consciousness we call our self awareness. (interruptions: sleep, comas, blackouts, anesthesia.)

I'd note that in the human body, it is considered that every cell is replaced at least once every 15 years. - questdiagnostics.com/patients/

You're you, as everything changes.

@wikipedia It's come up as a question of identity in people within SF already as a question of when does 'you' cease to be if your body parts are replaced over time, yet for that entire time you maintain the interrupted stream of consciousness we call our self awareness. (interruptions: sleep, comas, blackouts, anesthesia.)

Oliver Schafeld

This is the very concept I once referred to arguing about the actual reusability (and price advantage predicted as consequence) of spaceships that apparently need a replacement of key components after each landing.

โ˜บ๏ธ๐Ÿš€โ™ป๏ธ๐Ÿค“

hex

@oliver_schafeld I've used this to answer the question "can you suppress warnings about this specific instance of this bug in the future?" Fun fact for #infosec folks.

Aurin Azadรฎ

@wikipedia Same with an article in the German Wikipedia I had begun many years ago, using an even older article on my website. It's the article about the Interrupt Request (IRQ) in computers: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrup

Jess

@wikipedia Theseus grows old.

Over the years he loses friends, and makes new ones. He learns about himself and the world he lives in. He has kids. He loses his wife, not terribly young but still much too soon. He takes up dancing. At the age of 64 he dies peacefully, surrounded by his children.

Is Theseus still the same man who bought the boat, all those years ago?

Bodling

@wikipedia Whoa! (which could also work for this Trigger character)

janggolan

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." โ€”Theseus

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