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Curmudgeon

Been perusing late 17th and early 18th century texts, as one is wont to do, when I came across this pronoun rant.

Early 18th century text complaining about the singular you.
104 comments
Curmudgeon

I've seen this quote before, but was surprised to actually come across it while reading.

#Quaker #Books

For those who wish to see what happens next, the text is available online:

archive.org/details/historyofl

Curmudgeon

And, yes, early #Quakers were weird.

We're still weird, just in different ways.

Evan Gallagher (he/him)

@jetton Few people seem to get that, unlike modern pronoun rants, this was a rant *for* equality against the still newish practice of using ‘you’ to flatter social ‘superiors’. If ‘thou’ was good enough for God, it was good enough for me and thee.

Still, a fun rant to look back on.

TRNottommy

@jetton Someday I want know if there’s a rule for using long S vs curvy S

seems like there’s not

Curmudgeon

@notGordonAllport
Long s at the beginning of a word or in the middle. Short s at the end.

just adrienne

@jetton @notGordonAllport Also if there's a doubled 's', you would generally use short 's' for the second of the two, so for instance "possess" would usually be "poſseſs" rather than "poſſeſs". (This isn't consistent but it was general practice; it's just more readable).

Christine Munro 🧀

@adrienne @jetton @notGordonAllport I've seen a few of these, often with ligatures (even in typeface), so kinda like a modern German ß but with a tail.

Curmudgeon

@jgamble
Thanks for the link.

I'm not sure what it says about me that I find the original text easier to read than the modernized one.

Carrie Shanafelt

@hannah @jetton
17th-century Protestant writing is so underrated. Behold, Abiezer Coppe the Ranter!
exclassics.com/pamphlets/pamph

kindly shopkeeper

@carrideen @jetton english reformation/civil war stuff always feels like impenetrable instance drama to me

Brian Hawthorne

@jetton @juergen_hubert Thank thou for providing this most Amusing and Correct essay in which the evils of saying You to One are so accurately explicated. I shall endeavour henceforth to give Honour where it is Due and to reserve You for the Plural and Thou for One.

RealGene ☣️

@jetton
Full Alt text added.
Hey, did you know that Google Lens doesn't recognize the 'long S'?

Again, the corrupt and unfound Form of Speaking in the Plural Number to a single Person, YOU to One, instead of THOU, contrary to the pure, plain, and single Language of TRUTH, THOU to One, and YOU to more than One, which had always been used by GOD to Men, and Men to GOD, as well as one to another, from the oldest Record of Time, till corrupt Men, for corrupt Ends, in later and corrupt Times, to flatter, fawn, and work upon the corrupt Nature in Men, brought in that false and senseless Way of speaking YOU to One; which hath since corrupted the modern Languages, and hath greatly debased the Spirits, and depraved the Manners of Men. This evil Custom …
Curmudgeon

@RealGene
Thank you.

No, I didn't, but am not surprised.

Paul H

@RealGene @jetton

Google lens isn't sufficiently integrated (a little maths joke there - I'm here all week!)

Montana Magpie

@RealGene @jetton — Truly, the medial s, like the em ſpace, is treated unjuſtly by the whole typographic eſtabliſhment.

justpeachy

@RealGene @jetton neither does my brain apparently. Keep reading it as an f.

Stewart Russell

@RealGene @jetton Lens would need a special OCR setting to recognize long-S

tesseract-ocr using the 'enm' (Middle English?) language picks up most of them, but correctly outputs Unicode with long-S: f'rinstance "ſenſeleſs".

(I am more amused than I should be that it renders "ſingle" as "jingle", though)

kinyutaka

@RealGene @jetton

Again, the corrupt and unfound Form of fpeaking in the Plural Number to a fingle perfon.

olive

@RealGene @jetton ah, 'senseless', I was trying to figure out what fenseless meant…

Curmudgeon

@olive

fenseless means you have to watch to make sure your dog doesn't wander away.

Mrs.Alice :verified_twit:✨

@jetton LOL! Well, no need to worry. This can all be nicely solved by using YOU to One, and Y’ALL to more than One, which has always been used by DOLLY to Men, etc etc 😄

SeasonsChange

@seekingfreedom @jetton “used by DOLLY to Men” is such a great line. Highlight of my morning aside from my cup of coffee.

XenoLurch🏴

@jetton Would it kill you to do a proper alt text? You might as well just write "fuck you blind people" as this non-descriptive copout.

národní prase
@jetton i like "fenfelefs". Was the "f" way of writing S read differently from "s"?
jennie :nousa: :noisrael: 🇵🇸🌹

@jetton I'm especially confused that this author seemed to believe that English is an ancient language & that literally any biblical figures were English speakers

David JONES

@jetton just wait til they find out what happened to ſ.

Anna

@jetton God, like movie nazi's, prefers to speak English.

Σειληνός (Seilēnós)

@jetton Long before "this evil cuftom" of they/them, there was you/thou. 😄

Stephen J Henstridge

@jetton Well, he's not quite right.

Thou (subject) & Thee (object) are the singular forms.

Ye & You are the corresponding plural forms.

So, he should have been advocating for Thee

jd 🔆

@Kabit @jetton

OK. You win the Internet today!

Correction: Thou winnest the Internet today.

mj

@jetton I started read this and I love that using the singular "you" is one of several "evil customs" he gave up, including the wearing of rings, ribbons, and excess buttons 😂

Androcat

@jetton Not sure if this is related, but I once heard that at some point some people started reading the thorn mark (ᚦ ) as a y, since it's somewhat similar, giving stuff like "ye olde record shoppe".

Curmudgeon

@androcat
Somewhat related.
That was earlier, and iirc was due to British printers substituting y for þ which was not available in the imported (Dutch) type.

Ormur

@jetton It's kind of weird not to have a specific second person singular pronoun so I'm reluctantly in agreement here.

King Kaufman

@jetton

Jonathan Swift was all het up about this too.

mausmalone

@jetton I love it. I love especially the unhinged way this writer seems to think the bible he reads was always and originally the King James Version. A refined and cultured gentleman who has never heard of Greek or Aramaic.

Prasenjeet Dutta

@jetton @timbray Once upon a time “you” was reserved for social equals or betters, and “thou” for people sort of lower down the chain, or folk you were really familiar with. (This still happens in many Indic languages for instance)

“You” for everything was both simpler and egalitarian. I can totally see how some would be upset by this!

Curmudgeon

@pd

That was the motivation for Quakers not using the singular you.

jd 🔆

@Babcia54 @jetton
I’m sure they were well meaning and their text made sense to them. 😊

Elias Mårtenson

@tadbithuman @jetton the normal s is uſed at the end of a ſentence, long s is uſed when it's in the middle of a word.

Elias Mårtenson

@jetton I mean, he does have a point though. The lack of distinction between plural and singular you is quite annoying to someone speaking English as a second language.

Stereo

@jetton compromising and saying you like thou when it means one person, and like yoo when it means a group

bit101

@jetton changing my pronouns to you/thou

Western Infidels

@jetton It fure looks like Grouchy crank Defenfef of TRADITION have Alwayf had that all-too-familar ftyle of Random Capitalization.

I can't explain that but I can enjoy it anyway. This writer would have loved Facebook.

Christopher Schardl

@jetton Indeed, a “falfe and fenfelefs way of fpeaking”!

lolonurse

@jetton
I'm fenfing an epifode of indignant and furiouf hypertenfion! Verily!

jmht

@jetton Bring back thou! (although I'm fond of y'all)

Curmudgeon

The title page in case you want to pick up a copy at your local bookshop.

The HISTORY of the LIFE of Thomas Ellwood: Or, an Account of his BIRTH, EDUCATION, &c. with divers Observations on his Life and Manners when a Youth: And how he came to be convinced of the TRUTH; with his many Sufferings and Services for the same. ALSO several other remarkable Passages and Occurrences.
kinyutaka

@jetton

It's funny, because it's the same kinds of arguments we get for the #SingularThey

Richard W. Woodley NO THREADS 🇨🇦🌹🚴‍♂️📷 🗺️

@jetton
I was watching a Crusade (Babylon 5 sequel) episode last night where an archaeologist was commenting on discovering an alien language had no pronouns and I had to think he's discovered a planet full of Republicans.

DELETED

@jetton Language is an interesting cognitive and even religious tilt sometimes. ep.tc/realist/89/67.html

Virginicus

@jetton I can’t speak for anyone else, but my Spirit and Manners have definitely suffered for it.

Simon dē Gulielmō

@jetton Things haven't been the same since we stopped using dual pronouns. What's wrong with thinking of people in twos?

oldenglish.info/pro3.html

Russell Garner

@jetton @beng honeftly I deteft this manner of fpeaking.

PixiePancake

@jetton You might be on to something. I mean, thou might be on to something. ☺️

Devon Dundee

@jetton @Cdespinosa I need to know what this person would have said about “y’all.”

Curmudgeon

I'm astounded that so many people are into 300 year old religious autobiographies.
I thought I was the only one.

The fediverse never ceases to surprise.

Evelyn, who Just. Can't. Even.

@jetton Yes! From here on out, I will be will using “thee” & “thou” to address anyone objecting to using a plural pronoun for single individuals.

Kyle Brown

@jetton who could have guessed that all modern issues are because we stopped saying thou

kris

@jetton if we’re getting up in arms about grammar, i have to note that this is one heck of a run-on sentence

Joe Muscara/Joe Stone

@jetton @Cdespinosa it’s so much better now with “youse” and “y’all” and even “all y’all”. The clarity just keeps improving

Christine Munro 🧀

@jetton That'ſ quite entertaining; though their love of uſing the 𝑓lamboyant ſ abſolutely doeſ my head in. They could atte lea∫t have employed the even more outrageou∫ one now u∫ed in integral∫ a∫ itte *look∫* a bit like an ∫. I mean s. And not an f (or ƒ or 𝑓... whatevſ).

Curmudgeon

@vometia

The italic form, such as the first sentence, does look like the integral sign.

Not surprising, for the integral sign is an s. Short for summation, or whatever is the latin equivalent.
Unless I'm wrong.

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