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catte_salad clone (da_667)

@mhoye I see where you're coming from, and I'm all-in on having better documentation and less cryptic error messages, but I'm not 100% all-in on blaming all of life's problems on shitty docs. The amount of willful ignorance and number of average people who absolutely refuse to read error messages or maintain their systems is fucking astonishing.

So long as I can read the pop-up notifications, troubleshoot, and seek guidance in the docs, user community, and/or via search engines, I will never be without work. Your average person will not use critical thinking to solve their system problems. They'd just as soon throw that shit away and buy a new [phone/computer]. Or, failing that uninstall/reinstall.

Many will tell you that the average person shouldn't have to maintain their systems/software, that it should all be intuitive and just work™. Again, I disagree and I'll use a somewhat related example. In non-metropolitan cities in the US, there is a lack of reliable public transportation. Cars are kind of a necessity for getting around. If you have one, more than likely, you either know, or have been taught that regular maintenance and inspections are extremely important to keep the thing running.

Tire rotations, Oil Changes, Washer fluid, regularly washing the car to prevent mud/salt buildup from rusting the body, inspection to measure tread depth, checking tire pressure, and so on and so forth. Its fine if you don't know how to rotate tires and change the oil on your car, but you still know that routine maintenance and inspections for bigger problems is necessary to maintain such a complex machine.

Even if you disagree about cars being a necessity, you can take this logic and apply to motorcycles, scooters, bicycles, e-bikes. All of that shit requires routine maintenance and inspection. Check the bike chain and/or oil it, check the brakes on the bike, check the tire pressure, and so on, and so forth.

I feel like its mostly the same for software and system troubleshooting. People should know what a ping is. People should know how to clear their cache, temp files, and browser history. Be able to nslookup google.com. Read error messages and either comprehend them, or put them into a search engine to understand what they mean.

If modern computing is foundational in today's society then I feel like computer/technology comprehension should be a baseline skill. Its downright shitty to just respond to a lack of critical thinking with "Well, I'm just computer illiterate."

18 comments
DasMammut

@da_667 @mhoye #Oracle gives precise error codes which help in solving the problem.

#Microsoft just gives stupid messages like 'It doesn't work right now. We don't know why (maybe they know but they won't tell you). Try again tomorrow or ask your administrator' - Fuck: I'm the administrator - so whom can I ask !?! 🤯

Unfortunately, many people copy the Microsoft style of error messages 😞

catte_salad clone (da_667)

@rkbw @mhoye Yeah, see, thats a place where its an unintuitive mess because Microsoft is fucking awful.

But generally speaking, bluescreens have error codes that will at least point you in a general direction for search engine troubleshooting. Additionally the event viewer has become a fallback of mine. Look for Critical failures, Errors, followed by warnings.

Again, I fully acknowledge that it sucks and is unintuitive and fully agree that improvements would be effin' great.

DasMammut

@da_667 @mhoye When e.g. Windows updates failed I *never* have been able to learn something useful from the error code - if one was given at all 🤯

catte_salad clone (da_667)

@rkbw l Well, I've been there before and I have found results from failed windows updates that lead to solutions. But just as well I've had labyrinthine, serial problems with some Linux-based software stacks/applications/software updates where, you have no indication that anything is wrong, right up until you get random crashdumps while the program is running. I'm not arguing against better error messages and documentation.

But anecdotal experiences are anecdotal experiences. What if I told you that I haven't had a blue screen of death in over 7 years across two major Windows operating systems?

@rkbw l Well, I've been there before and I have found results from failed windows updates that lead to solutions. But just as well I've had labyrinthine, serial problems with some Linux-based software stacks/applications/software updates where, you have no indication that anything is wrong, right up until you get random crashdumps while the program is running. I'm not arguing against better error messages and documentation.

Bee O'Problem

@rkbw @da_667 @mhoye sadly Microsoft used to give quite useful errors back in the 9x and XP days. Then Apple marketing shit on them in ads for having "scary looking" technical error messages (alongside shitting on them for growing pains over implementing a proper security model).

So now it's all useless "friendly" errors that are completely useless for doing much of any troubleshooting.

davenicolette

@da_667 @mhoye Agreed, but I don't see that as a substitute for usable docs. Why not both?

Ian Sudbery

@da_667 @mhoye Whether people "should" know able to do these things is immaterial. They don't, and no amount of believing it should be otherwise will change that. If we want to build a world that works, we need to accept that.

catte_salad clone (da_667)

@IanSudbery @mhoye I refuse to live in a world where willful ignorance of a core function that affects so many peoples' daily lives is accepted. I'm doing what I can to push back.

Ian Sudbery

@da_667 @mhoye

Hows that going for you? Making much headway?

I wouldn't have a clue about car maintinance. I chose to learn how to code, rather than how to maintain a car. I can manage to check the tire pressure and if the windcreen washer stops working to fill it up. I'm aware a car must be serviced on a regular basis, and if a warning light comes on, to take it to the mechanic. Who spend their time learning how cars work, rather than how computers work.

Adriano

@IanSudbery @da_667 @mhoye
You are conflating different things. Programmers dealing with documentation and error codes are not common drivers, they're the mechanics in your analogy. They are supposed to be able to understand. If the cars are actively hostile to fixing, it's a problem.

Adriano

@IanSudbery @da_667 @mhoye Having read essays by ESR, I do remember how the self-described Unix tribal elder states that documentation that only says things once and expects readers to figure out stuff on their own is good.

And this is absolute bullshit.

Ian Sudbery

@adriano @da_667 @mhoye

I guess this gets to the nub of it: who should be able to do the work we are talking about? Should everyone be able to do it? Should it be resitricted to trained professional (mechanics). If so, how hard shuold it be to become a mechanic? Should anyone be able to do it with a little bit of time and some tutorials and manuals, or do you need a first class degree in engineering (automotive or software).

Adriano

@IanSudbery @da_667 @mhoye Look, the original post talked about documentation for programmers. Not for everyone. Talking about documentation that serves everyone is a different conversation.

Ian Sudbery

@adriano @da_667 @mhoye Actaully, I agree, mostly. I think we've gone off down an unhelpful analogy.

Bee O'Problem

@adriano @IanSudbery @da_667 @mhoye the mechanics that have to deal with such cars agree with you. Some designers kinda just suck at making stuff that's easy to work with.

IIRC a Chrysler/Dodge model was pretty infamous for having a battery compartment that could only be accessed by removing a front wheel and a bunch of related parts. A normal car can have its battery replaced by opening the hood, undoing three nuts/bolts, putting in the new battery and reinstalling the nuts/bolts.

catte_salad clone (da_667)

@beeoproblem @adriano @IanSudbery @mhoye grand cherokees their batteries under the passenger seat.

BMWs have a nonstandard, much more expensive battery. Every field is serially awful.

mhoye

@da_667 @beeoproblem @adriano @IanSudbery

I've replaced the air conditioner in a Honda CRV myself once, only taking it to the garage to top up the freon. The guy at the garage said "Listen: never sell this car. If you do, come talk to me first, but never sell this car." For that exact reason. Everything in it could be fixed with having to take everything else apart.

catte_salad clone (da_667)

@IanSudbery @mhoye that is exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not telling you that you need to know how to wrench on a car, it is enough to know basic maintenance tasks, and how to communicate to a profressional that there are problems beyond routine maintenance tasks.

Why should anyone be willing to make exceptions for computing?

If you consider the invention of the Unix operating system to be the "beginning" of the modern computing revolution, then that means modern computing has been around for the better part of 50 years. Hell, I'll walk that back and we can say that 1995 can be considered the beginning of the modern home computing revolution -- smack in the middle of the explosive growth of the internet and windows 95. That's still 30 fucking years.

The model T was first created in 1906.

Claiming computer illiteracy would be akin to someone alive during world war II claiming that they have no notion of how to maintain or operate a car. At all.

Why do we accept computer illiteracy as an excuse? All I want is when someone comes across a computer problem for them to be a little more competent than saying "this piece of shit is broke". and when inquiring further 'what, exactly is broke?' not get a response akin to "I DONT KNOW. ARENT YOU SUPPOSED TO FIX IT?" It'd be really neat for them to be able to say:

"I've cleared my browser cache already. I use Microsoft Edge"

"I've made sure that I am connected to the internet."

"Oh, I wrote down the error message. It said..."

It's fucking embarassing.

@IanSudbery @mhoye that is exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not telling you that you need to know how to wrench on a car, it is enough to know basic maintenance tasks, and how to communicate to a profressional that there are problems beyond routine maintenance tasks.

Why should anyone be willing to make exceptions for computing?

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