Email or username:

Password:

Forgot your password?
mhoye's posts Post Back to profile
Top-level
catte_salad clone (da_667)

@IanSudbery @mhoye I refuse to live in a world where willful ignorance of a core function that affects so many peoples' daily lives is accepted. I'm doing what I can to push back.

1 Nov 2023 at 15:33 | Wall-to-wall | Open on infosec.exchange
10 comments
Ian Sudbery

@da_667 @mhoye

Hows that going for you? Making much headway?

I wouldn't have a clue about car maintinance. I chose to learn how to code, rather than how to maintain a car. I can manage to check the tire pressure and if the windcreen washer stops working to fill it up. I'm aware a car must be serviced on a regular basis, and if a warning light comes on, to take it to the mechanic. Who spend their time learning how cars work, rather than how computers work.

1 Nov 2023 at 15:42 | Open on genomic.social
Adriano

@IanSudbery @da_667 @mhoye
You are conflating different things. Programmers dealing with documentation and error codes are not common drivers, they're the mechanics in your analogy. They are supposed to be able to understand. If the cars are actively hostile to fixing, it's a problem.

1 Nov 2023 at 15:46 | Open on lile.cl
Adriano

@IanSudbery @da_667 @mhoye Having read essays by ESR, I do remember how the self-described Unix tribal elder states that documentation that only says things once and expects readers to figure out stuff on their own is good.

And this is absolute bullshit.

1 Nov 2023 at 15:48 | Open on lile.cl
Ian Sudbery

@adriano @da_667 @mhoye

I guess this gets to the nub of it: who should be able to do the work we are talking about? Should everyone be able to do it? Should it be resitricted to trained professional (mechanics). If so, how hard shuold it be to become a mechanic? Should anyone be able to do it with a little bit of time and some tutorials and manuals, or do you need a first class degree in engineering (automotive or software).

1 Nov 2023 at 16:23 | Open on genomic.social
Adriano

@IanSudbery @da_667 @mhoye Look, the original post talked about documentation for programmers. Not for everyone. Talking about documentation that serves everyone is a different conversation.

1 Nov 2023 at 16:24 | Open on lile.cl
Ian Sudbery

@adriano @da_667 @mhoye Actaully, I agree, mostly. I think we've gone off down an unhelpful analogy.

1 Nov 2023 at 16:28 | Open on genomic.social
Bee O'Problem

@adriano @IanSudbery @da_667 @mhoye the mechanics that have to deal with such cars agree with you. Some designers kinda just suck at making stuff that's easy to work with.

IIRC a Chrysler/Dodge model was pretty infamous for having a battery compartment that could only be accessed by removing a front wheel and a bunch of related parts. A normal car can have its battery replaced by opening the hood, undoing three nuts/bolts, putting in the new battery and reinstalling the nuts/bolts.

2 Nov 2023 at 0:35 | Open on mastodon.gamedev.place
catte_salad clone (da_667)

@beeoproblem @adriano @IanSudbery @mhoye grand cherokees their batteries under the passenger seat.

BMWs have a nonstandard, much more expensive battery. Every field is serially awful.

2 Nov 2023 at 0:47 | Open on infosec.exchange
mhoye

@da_667 @beeoproblem @adriano @IanSudbery

I've replaced the air conditioner in a Honda CRV myself once, only taking it to the garage to top up the freon. The guy at the garage said "Listen: never sell this car. If you do, come talk to me first, but never sell this car." For that exact reason. Everything in it could be fixed with having to take everything else apart.

2 Nov 2023 at 1:45 | Open on mastodon.social
catte_salad clone (da_667)

@IanSudbery @mhoye that is exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not telling you that you need to know how to wrench on a car, it is enough to know basic maintenance tasks, and how to communicate to a profressional that there are problems beyond routine maintenance tasks.

Why should anyone be willing to make exceptions for computing?

If you consider the invention of the Unix operating system to be the "beginning" of the modern computing revolution, then that means modern computing has been around for the better part of 50 years. Hell, I'll walk that back and we can say that 1995 can be considered the beginning of the modern home computing revolution -- smack in the middle of the explosive growth of the internet and windows 95. That's still 30 fucking years.

The model T was first created in 1906.

Claiming computer illiteracy would be akin to someone alive during world war II claiming that they have no notion of how to maintain or operate a car. At all.

Why do we accept computer illiteracy as an excuse? All I want is when someone comes across a computer problem for them to be a little more competent than saying "this piece of shit is broke". and when inquiring further 'what, exactly is broke?' not get a response akin to "I DONT KNOW. ARENT YOU SUPPOSED TO FIX IT?" It'd be really neat for them to be able to say:

"I've cleared my browser cache already. I use Microsoft Edge"

"I've made sure that I am connected to the internet."

"Oh, I wrote down the error message. It said..."

It's fucking embarassing.

@IanSudbery @mhoye that is exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not telling you that you need to know how to wrench on a car, it is enough to know basic maintenance tasks, and how to communicate to a profressional that there are problems beyond routine maintenance tasks.

Why should anyone be willing to make exceptions for computing?

1 Nov 2023 at 15:53 | Open on infosec.exchange
Go Up