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Shoq

In the last 20 years, I’ve read only one mostly fair and balanced unpacking of the fundamentals behind the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It was this one, by Max Fisher. It’s 8 years old, but still mostly current.

I urge everyone, especially you GenZs who are new to this ongoing tragedy to read it. It’s important to know what’s real, what’s myth, and what’s complete bullshit. Dare I say it? “On both sides.”

“The 11 biggest myths about Israel-Palestine”
vox.com/2015/5/14/18093732/isr
12 Oct 2023 at 15:31 | Open on mastodon.social
22 comments
Donald Ball

@shoq @gaurav Myth #7 seems debatable to me. Israel has thumbed its nose at any strings the US has ever sought to put on its aid because they believe their position in US politics to be effectively unassailable. Any US party or politician that seeks to earnestly impose conditions, to the point of denying aid should those conditions fail to obtain, runs a potent political risk.

Thus, perhaps it’s fair to say the myth is true, but not for the reasons stated.

12 Oct 2023 at 16:14 | Open on triangletoot.party
Ian M. Noone

@donaldball @shoq @gaurav
I would tend to agree with this assessment, and I also feel like, more generally, the article tends to gloss over the enormous power differential between the Israeli government/IDF and the Palestinian people, Iran's cynical support of Hamas notwithstanding.

Also, I will never forget an interview I saw with Netanyahu shortly after he first became PM in 1996, in which he all but came right out and said that his intent was genocide of the Palestinians "for the sake of our children". Very like the "14 words" of white supremacists, and it's clear that he has never wavered from that.

Which is not to say that the article doesn't make some very good points, but I do feel like some reassessment and a harder look at some history and the current major players is in order. As the author said, the apathy has left fertile ground for extremist views to proliferate, and I feel like that's happened, particularly among a patently criminal ruling class.

@donaldball @shoq @gaurav
I would tend to agree with this assessment, and I also feel like, more generally, the article tends to gloss over the enormous power differential between the Israeli government/IDF and the Palestinian people, Iran's cynical support of Hamas notwithstanding.

Also, I will never forget an interview I saw with Netanyahu shortly after he first became PM in 1996, in which he all but came right out and said that his intent was genocide of the Palestinians "for the sake of our children"....

12 Oct 2023 at 16:51 | Open on lgbtqia.space
Shoq

@ianmnoone @donaldball @gaurav

Fair points, but power differentials always exist, so they just become part of whatever equation for peace someone comes up with. The problem of the last decade and a half is no one comes up with any.

12 Oct 2023 at 17:04 | Open on mastodon.social
Donald Ball

@ianmnoone @shoq @gaurav The central question about which I endlessly, uneasily circle is, I think: what are the ethical responses available to the victims of crimes against humanity in the absence of justice?

What Hamas has done this week shocks the conscience and consists, in significant parts, of indefensible crimes against humanity, but it's... incomplete, even offensive to sit in judgment when no effective alternatives are at hand.

12 Oct 2023 at 17:32 | Open on triangletoot.party
Andrastaxx 💚💜🌼🌎🇦🇽

@shoq I'd like to recommend Isaac Saul's very long post on twitter today too for a heartfelt, historically informative, interesting and pertinent overview.

12 Oct 2023 at 16:44 | Open on universeodon.com
Grimpen Mar

@shoq one additional nuance missing from the myth that "Israel is a European colony" is that the majority (or at least a plurality) of Israeli citizens trace their backgrounds to Mizrahi Jews, not Ashkenazi or Sephardi.

12 Oct 2023 at 17:06 | Open on mstdn.ca
Shoq

True, and while I am hardly an authority on Israel or its politics, it seems that a lot of the right leaning extremism finds the most fertile soil amid the Mizrahim. Is this mostly right or wrong in your view?

Source: @grimpen
mastodon.social/@grimpen@mstdn
12 Oct 2023 at 17:20 | Open on mastodon.social
Martin Vermeer FCD

@grimpen @shoq This is true, though on the other hand, the ruling class is more Ashkenazi dominated. But also, it doesn't matter much: the European Jews making up the Zionist movement did not represent European colonialism, though interacting with and partly benefiting from it. There is no 'homeland' in Europe that Israel is a settler colony of and Israelis could 'return' to: Israel *is* the homeland. Especially of the current, often already fourth or fifth generation Israelis.

12 Oct 2023 at 18:05 | Open on fediscience.org
Grimpen Mar

@martinvermeer @shoq yes, and the article makes that point, that early Zionist organizations were actively suppressed by European powers (as outlined in the article). I just find it ironic that there is a myth that Jewish = European = colonizers when Israelis of Ashkenazi descent are not the majority, and that Jews have always lived in the area.

12 Oct 2023 at 22:12 | Open on mstdn.ca
Martin Vermeer FCD

@grimpen @shoq ...and Lord Balfour known to be an antisemite...

13 Oct 2023 at 8:59 | Open on fediscience.org
Benjohn

@shoq very happy to see point two on that list so prominent!

12 Oct 2023 at 17:24 | Open on todon.nl
lobster
Regezi
OCRbot

@Regez
Once you see the truth about a few widely held misconceptions. the conflict starts to make a
lot more sense.

Myth #1: The confl'ct is too complex to possibly
understand

This is. in many ways, the lsraelsPalestine misconception from which all other Israel*F*alestine
misconceptions flow: that the conflict is an impossibly complicated mess so far beyond
human untangling or comprehension that we should not really try.

It's true that lsraeeralestine is complicated, but it's not that complicated (you can getflle
full pr'lner here). At its most basic level, the conflict between lsraelis and Palestinians is over
who gem what land and how that land is controlled. Ves, there are some very thorny details 7
how to divide the city of Jerusalem, for example 7 but the list of such details is not
impossibly long. And while these issues can be extremely difficult to resolve. graspingthem is
not.

@Regez
Once you see the truth about a few widely held misconceptions. the conflict starts to make a
lot more sense.

Myth #1: The confl'ct is too complex to possibly
understand

This is. in many ways, the lsraelsPalestine misconception from which all other Israel*F*alestine
misconceptions flow: that the conflict is an impossibly complicated mess so far beyond
human untangling or comprehension that we should not really try.

12 Oct 2023 at 18:48 | Open on kolektiva.social
Paul Sutton

@shoq Excellent, thank you for this

12 Oct 2023 at 19:09 | Open on qoto.org
QueerAsInRadical

@shoq Ouh, nice Article thanks! But still I think its a big weak point that the whole article does not talk about antisemitism. Or Iran

12 Oct 2023 at 21:27 | Open on chaos.social
Mortadella
Alexandre Hannud Abdo
@Alexandre Oliva @Count Shoqula  Hmm, no. It's got good historical facts, but it is not that good an article. And it's not current. It downplays facts that speak in favor of palestinians, like how Israel systematically failed to keep with agreements, always finding an excuse in the smallest action by the minority of radical palestinians, or simply unilaterally abandoning them, as palestinians for the most part held through while having their land grabbed and their rights and humanity violated every single day. While going as far as emphasizing (even resorting to increasing font size!) still-born goodwill offers on the part of Israel. It also downplays how "international aid" means very different things to the oppressor and oppressed sides: it barely keeps palestinians alive, while it systematically legitimates, promotes wealth, and enables Israel to arm itself like no other country. It also doesn't reflect the current events of the extreme-right taking power in Israel, with severe consequences for palestinians, the true face of Netanyahu and of many Israeli "we're just dealing with politics" old-school politicians, who have since made clear they're driven by racism, and doesn't recognize the situation of palestinians as apartheid.
@Alexandre Oliva @Count Shoqula Hmm, no. It's got good historical facts, but it is not that good an article. And it's not current. It downplays facts that speak in favor of palestinians, like how Israel systematically failed to keep with agreements, always finding an excuse in the smallest action by the minority of radical palestinians, or simply unilaterally abandoning them, as palestinians for the most part held through while having their land grabbed and their rights and humanity violated every...
13 Oct 2023 at 14:00 | Open on hubzilla.com.br
Earthling

@shoq@mastodon.social

".... too complex to possibly understand" ???

In human evolution war began with the patriarchy 5000+ years ago, and it always was and still is about LAND!
Nothing complicated here!

13 Oct 2023 at 23:25 | Open on calckey.world
Lizzie
Gdac

@shoq today is a good day to start to learn real history. Thanks for this 🙏 but it’s hard still to know the sources this writer used and how true. I’ll read the links, and dig deeper.

19 Oct 2023 at 15:35 | Open on mastodon.world
Steven Zekowski

@shoq @jgkoomey
For anyone interested in digging deeper into myths, this short book is free to download: Ten Myths About Israel. It’s well referenced, lots of citations, and written by an Israeli historian Ilan Pappé (currently at U of Exeter I think). I’m about 2/3 done. It’s very enlightening. You’ll get a somewhat different view from Fisher’s, eg, chapter 4 dispels the myth “Zionism is not Colonialism”.

versobooks.com/products/370-te

@shoq @jgkoomey
For anyone interested in digging deeper into myths, this short book is free to download: Ten Myths About Israel. It’s well referenced, lots of citations, and written by an Israeli historian Ilan Pappé (currently at U of Exeter I think). I’m about 2/3 done. It’s very enlightening. You’ll get a somewhat different view from Fisher’s, eg, chapter 4 dispels the myth “Zionism is not Colonialism”.

30 Oct 2023 at 15:02 | Open on freeradical.zone
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