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Fedi.Tips 🎄

Many, many people have asked about error messages when using mastodon.social.

Mastodon.social is far too large. Its massive size causes errors, and threatens the long term safety of the whole Fediverse.

I strongly encourage people on mastodon.social to move their account to another server.

You can find reliable servers on the official site at joinmastodon.org/servers or my own recommended list at fedi.garden

Here's a step-by-step guide for moving: fedi.tips/transferring-your-ma

102 comments
stephan

@feditips What is your take on "one profile"-Mastodon Servers? How does the Fediverse scale with many very small servers? Is there an optimum, say for how 100 Mio users should be distributed on how many servers?

🎀🌸Mia🏳️‍⚧️🌸🎀

@stephan @feditips

"one profile"-Mastodon Servers are no problem at all for the small servers, it is possible that they become a problem for big servers though.

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@m @stephan

The optimum is partly what percentage of the entire network are on a single server.

Mastodon.social's percentage of all users is far too high (something like 15-20%), and the promotion of mastodon.social as a "default" server with other servers sidelined is just making it worse.

emurphy

@feditips @m @stephan Having some sort of default makes sense to ease things for new users, but maybe instead of a single default, offer a short list of general-purpose instances (randomly sorted, and rotating some instances in and out of the list over time). And of course continuing to suggest "start here, but consider moving once you get a handle on things".

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@emurphy @m @stephan

Yup, definitely.

If you have to have a "just sign up here" server, it can be rotated from a pool of reliable servers.

It was suggested when they started advertising mastodon.social as a default, but it never happened 😞

benny

@feditips @emurphy @m @stephan I once thought maybe a limited time server would make sense. Like being the goto place for new people, maybe filled with helpful explanaitions for the newbies, including how to move, and then making them move after a certain time, so there is more space for newer newbys.

🎀🌸Mia🏳️‍⚧️🌸🎀

@benny @feditips @emurphy @stephan

I think onbording should be as easy as possible.
A global default server is a good idea to achive this goal _as_long_ we are able to get these user to migrate somewhere else when they understand what is going on.

Maybe for this, the migration thing should be more easy and it should be possible without the home instance running, keep all posts and data and
we need some form of incentive to move to smaller instances.
But how this should look like is a though question.

GoTo KTV

@stephan @feditips There are also other platforms (GoToSocial, Snac2, Firefish, etc) that are better suited for small, one-person servers, but still compatible with Mastodon. (Simpler to manage and/or use less server resources.)

Angie

@feditips I keep meaning to move. I just haven't yet. I will try to remember this weekend.

Kyle Judd

@feditips Personally, I don’t get error messages on my server and moving to a new server feels like a chore, but that’s me.

Am I allowed to keep my server if I don’t have this issue already or should I partake moving?

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@vanhalbgott

It's totally your decision, but it will have a small negative effect by centralising the network a tiny bit.

A very large number of those small decisions then accumulate.

It's a bit like any threat to an environment, decisions have small effects but big threats are an accumulation of small decisions.

Kyle Judd

@feditips So it would be better if I switched servers then? I think so myself.

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@vanhalbgott

It's totally your decision! Feel free to ignore me, I'm just some random person on the internet.

I'm just trying to raise awareness that alternatives exist, and that mastodon.social's size is causing problems.

Kyle Judd

@feditips I understand you completely. I’m already considering switching if the server I’m on is actually causing issues.

Shanie

@vanhalbgott @feditips Beyond the "one giant server" problem, another problem is a moderation team to protect the users within mastodon.social and servers federated *to* mastodon.social. Dealing with hundreds of thousands of active users is a very difficult task, so spreading those users out amongst a federated network is altogether a better user and moderation experience while letting different servers be a bit more specialized to users' interests. :comfypopcorn:

morri

@vanhalbgott @feditips i havent switch servers i just signed up at a different one.

Cameron

@feditips indeed. They really should have capped the number of users, and better directed them to other instances. It seems like growth at the expense of vision.

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@bitflipped

Not just that, but the official app and website are openly telling people to just sign up on mastodon.social.

I get that they want to keep things as simple as possible for users who don't understand federation, but they could have recommended a server with a long track record that isn't quite as large.

And they didn't.

Nafeon :verified_solarpunk:

@feditips @bitflipped they could've even provided multiple servers and you get to one randomly when you sign up, but they did nothing.

Tara L. Campbell

@NafiTheBear @feditips Plenty of online games do this to balance the load, it's surprising a similar feature wasn't implemented when they started suggesting mastodon.social as the starting point.

Cameron

@feditips Exactly, and so what we've ended up with is a data silo that's a core/integral part of the fediverse, or at least the Mastodon part of it.

There isn't really a way to "migrate" to another server in any meaningful sense either, so I can't see many people actually doing it.

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@bitflipped

"There isn't really a way to "migrate" to another server in any meaningful sense either, "

Keeping your existing followers and follows, bookmarks, lists, blocklists etc and redirecting people to your new profile from your old posts/profile is very meaningful.

None of these are possible on centralised networks.

It's not an "all or nothing" thing.

Cameron

@feditips Yes, but you'll probably find that most people won't be willing to leave their posts behind on another server.

DELETED

@bitflipped @feditips
meh, it's not possible to search one's own posts, so every day's posts are left behind in the past anyway.

Cameron

@heyjupiter @feditips it is now providing your server has it enabled (and if you opted in presumably). Search for from:<your username> <term>

DELETED

@bitflipped @feditips
There's no link to any documentation of this function in the user interface. If the user doesn't know it exists, then it doesn't exist.

Cameron

@heyjupiter @feditips Yes, it's brand new and not all servers have even upgraded yet. There has been a lot of chatter about it however.

They will be refining it.

DELETED

@bitflipped @feditips
they haven't refined not posting private DMs as public posts, so I'm not holding my breath...

DELETED replied to DELETED

@bitflipped @feditips
in other words, please stop gaslighting me

Cameron replied to DELETED

@heyjupiter @feditips Gaslighting? You made an incorrect statement, so I tried to be helpful by pointing you to functionality that you didn't seem to know existed.

That's not gaslighting, that's just correcting factually incorrect information. I realise that's not terribly popular these days, but I think you'll find what you just did is actually gaslighting.

DELETED replied to Cameron

@bitflipped @feditips
you're asserting that an undocumented CLI command syntax is somehow available to users, as if a tree falling in the middle of a forest when no one is around will make a noise. I mean, okay, sure, technically you're right.

In other news, I noticed literally just now that the ENTIRE USER INTERFACE for DMs is COMPLETELY GONE. I can't send a DM, I can't receive a DM, I can't view any previously sent DM. I can't view any previously received DM. Mastodon is such a shit show.

Nini

@feditips I'd move to another instance for sure, just that there's so many issues and caveats that come with moving that I'm honestly put off the idea. Portability remains a problem for Mastodon and it's hard to encourage moving when doing so is like leaving several boxes of your possessions at your old place.

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@niniotter

The posts from your old account don't disappear, they remain on the previous server and people who click on the name of the post's author will be redirected to your new account.

Also bear in mind that no server on any service will keep your posts forever:

forbes.com/sites/mattnovak/202

theguardian.com/technology/201

The only way to keep posts online indefinitely is to own your own service (which is what I encourage at growyourown.services).

@niniotter

The posts from your old account don't disappear, they remain on the previous server and people who click on the name of the post's author will be redirected to your new account.

Also bear in mind that no server on any service will keep your posts forever:

forbes.com/sites/mattnovak/202

Nordnick :verified:

@niniotter @feditips

You can also use more than one account... if this would help you. Many apps support multiple accounts, so it is easy to handle.

Nordnick :verified:

@feditips

If you are fine with german language, you can follow mastodon.social statistics here: @mastodon_social

More statistics on mastodonien.de (in German).

Daniel

@feditips@mstdn.social Also if you're looking for a new instance, why not check out some other fediverse services with other interfaces and possibilities :)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse#Software

AudraTran :debian:

@feditips @Mastodon should consider maintaining a list of volunteer instances with demonstrable stability and moderation practices. These instances should be rotated as the "default" instances as necessary on the website and the app.

I'm not sure how this works from a technical standpoint but it seems like it would solve the problem of giant default instances.

DELETED

@AudraTran @feditips @Mastodon

From a technical standpoint, strictly speaking, people who write code that posts user's private DMs as public posts are in over their heads...

DELETED

@AudraTran
I'm referring to the fact that the Mastodon web interface posts user's private DMs as public posts.

Nicole

@feditips what server do you suggest for general interest folks?

DELETED

@feditips

It would really be helpful to have a database of data about performance and other attributes of mastodon servers, to make choosing a server easier. It kinda defeats the purpose of having servers run by non-commercial progressive interests WHEN USERS CANT FIND THESE SERVERS. Users have a right to know uptime, user count, backup policy, etc. Most Mastodon servers operate in secrecy, NOT DISCLOSING THIS BASIC INFO TO THEIR USERS. And this is different from Facebook / twitter how? At least with Twitter we know that an incompetent musk is wheeling servers into moving vans. With Mastodon servers we have no idea.

instances.social/ lists 18,000 instances with some metrics, but you need to know how to import HTML into a spreadsheet to use it.

@feditips

It would really be helpful to have a database of data about performance and other attributes of mastodon servers, to make choosing a server easier. It kinda defeats the purpose of having servers run by non-commercial progressive interests WHEN USERS CANT FIND THESE SERVERS. Users have a right to know uptime, user count, backup policy, etc. Most Mastodon servers operate in secrecy, NOT DISCLOSING THIS BASIC INFO TO THEIR USERS. And this is different from Facebook / twitter how? At least...

Damon Outlaw

@feditips@mstdn.social
How does it threaten the future of the Fedi? That seems to be a stretch. I believe a bigger threat is hamstrung admins that are only expected to survive on donations. People want to tell “small instances” but that’s not the solution & we can’t make the medium to large instances kick people off and go small. Just look at this year alone and how many instances are offline. That to me is a danger to the future of the Fediverse, culturally being opposed to admin’s financially supporting themselves is also a huge threat.
Mastodon.social runs fine and between individuals and companies it gets plenty of donations

@feditips@mstdn.social
How does it threaten the future of the Fedi? That seems to be a stretch. I believe a bigger threat is hamstrung admins that are only expected to survive on donations. People want to tell “small instances” but that’s not the solution & we can’t make the medium to large instances kick people off and go small. Just look at this year alone and how many instances are offline. That to me is a danger to the future of the Fediverse, culturally being opposed to admin’s financially supporting...

Richard Grant

@feditips I question whether you should be editorializing from the Fedi.tips account. Many people have come to rely on you for understanding how to use mastodon (and the fediverse generally), and will assume you're speaking in some official capacity.

But what you're doing is advocating for a particular view of the fediverse — which I consider alarmist and, at the very least, open to debate. There's no objective standard by which a server can be declared "too large." Why stoke this conflict?

Richard Grant

@feditips If you *are* going to push people toward smaller servers, at least acknowledge some of the problems that may arise.

The admin may get overwhelmed, depressed, or fed up — and just quit, with minimal notice. The server then ceases to exist. This happens all the time.

The admins of small servers often feud with one another, and with larger servers, which leads to impulsive defederation, which messes up the user experience. There's no easy way to foresee which servers will be affected.

Richard Grant

@feditips

Moderation cuts two ways. Yes, bigger servers have more posts and more posters to moderate. But they also, being larger, can field a well-trained moderation team.

With small servers, what you've typically got is one admin and maybe a couple of (volunteer) helpers. Maybe they are good at what they do. But maybe they're erratic, distracted, or just not suited to the task. It's quite difficult really, and more complex than one might think.

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@richardgrant

". But they also, being larger, can field a well-trained moderation team. "

I don't follow the logic there?

Why would moderation on a server with a million users be better than on a server with a thousand users?

If anything, going by experience of the Fediverse, the moderation on massive servers is much worse. The ratio of staff to users tends to become lower as a server grows, which leads to lower quality moderation.

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@richardgrant

"With small servers, what you've typically got is one admin and maybe a couple of (volunteer) helpers."

It's not the numbers that matter, it's the ratio.

If a server has a thousand people and one moderator, that's 1:1000.

For Facebook to match that ratio they would need three million moderators, which they clearly don't have. Meta's entire employee count is only 70,000.

That's why massive networks depend heavily on automated moderation, they don't have enough people.

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@richardgrant

"If you *are* going to push people toward smaller servers, at least acknowledge some of the problems that may arise. "

If you read the links I suggested people find servers from, they are all required to have at least two admins, give three months warning if they are closing down, take daily backups, moderate against specific kinds of hate speech etc.

I'm not recommending random servers but very specific lists.

Richard Grant

@feditips

My friend, I acknowledge these points, and I respect your point of view. I'm not trying to win this debate.

My point really is that there *is* a debate here. A blanket declaration that (for example) mastodon.social is bad somehow, and people should leave it immediately, is simply not a settled truth. Making such assertions with the imprimatur of the @feditips account is what I'm questioning.

Peter Nimmo

@feditips if you're in Scotland, come to mastodon.scot. @trumpet does a good job!

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@Battle_Masker

I would be careful there, instances.social don't screen the servers they list, there's no way of knowing if they're reliable?

Battle Masker

@feditips good point. closest they got is a thing where you can auto-set certain filters, but it's limited to illegal content and nudity

Fedi.Tips 🎄

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting signing up on a random server with no track record.

The server lists I linked to have very specific requirements to be listed (joinmastodon.org/covenant and fedi.garden/about-this-site/).

Also, many of these servers have been going for years without problems. You can browse the servers on fedi.garden listed by year of foundation:

fedi.garden/servers-sorted-by-

[HUGS] getimiskon :OwOid: :blobcatgooglywtf: :verified_neko:
@feditips well, if someone makes a new instance and they get to invite their friends there to have fun on fedi, technically they sign up on a random server with no track record. :blobcatgoogly:
Erik “Lacraia” Magnusson

@feditips what do you think of a single-user server? I’m considering it. I have the domain already registered and thinking about paying for a managed instance.

Mackaj

@lacraia

The things you will miss out on with a single-user instance are populated Explore and Local timelines.

If you choose a reasonably populated server with a geographical or special interest theme your Local timeline should be a source of posts you'll find engaging.

Explore shows you what's trending, so the more people you have in your server and the more connections they make with other people on other servers, the richer this timeline will be.

@feditips

Nordnick :verified:

@lacraia @feditips

It works... it's just, that in your local timeline you just talk to yourself... ;-)

Btw.: There exist more than #Mastodon... for example #Friendica runs in a #LAMP environment, where you get a lot of hosting offers. But also specific #Mastodon hosting exist, e.g. masto.host.

scaglio

@lacraia it is quite an effort to maintain the instance, not only technically. In my opinion, it is the best option if you have the resources, including time. @feditips

CDunn

@feditips
I have been seeing poor performance (with good network connections, thumbnails take minutes to load, and sometimes avatars are slow to load). Is there any way to tell if this is due to the server I am on? I would rather not jump ship if it doesn’t resolve the issue.

StandingPad

@feditips if I want transfer my account, what are some suggestions? Mostly asking because I've heard not everything is transfered

whatever :orchard_gradient:

@feditips If anyone here wants to move, Orchard’s an open option for anyone that wants a chill, general instance. Find it on fedi.garden

DELETED

@feditips if this is the case, then why is mastodon.social still allowing sign-ups? Don’t they run other instances as well? What about removing the biggest servers from the recommended list? There’s got to be more solutions than just asking people to move to a new server.

Scott Knowles

@feditips No surprise as one server (mastodon.social) would become the dominant server. Expect it will get larger as more people sign up and as smaller servers become too expensive to operate and consolidate. Given time expect network eventually to become one dominant server with a few large ones and smattering of smaller ones, but the distributed system will disappear. Wait for it. JMO

Wohlstandszynismus

@feditips In point 7, it is recommended not to delete the old account in order to redirect users to the new one. Does this play a significant role for the server load?

ikuo

@feditips Ack. I actually just helped a non-tech savvy friend sign up for Mastodon (yay!) and suggested they use the same server I'm on, but the set-up process suggested mastodon.social, so they wanted and did end up using that one, because it was the "official" recommendation. 😕

David O'Brien

OK, I get that; but my interests are very broad:

• web design/development
• tech
• politics
• science
• art
• photography
• news/current affairs

Which is why I opted for a 'generalist' server.

@feditips

David O'Brien

And I also get that I can follow these topic (and accounts) from any server.

But if I'm on a web tech server posting politics stuff, I annoy people.

And vice-versa.

So what's the solution?

@feditips

Nicolás

@feditips I joined mastodon.social because it was the instance suggested in the app when I signed up. Now I just migrated my tiny account to another server.
🏘🦣<<<🏙
Downsides: public profile info has to be reentered.
Upsides: it's a straightforward process that allows to keep bookmarks, followers, follows, blocks and mutes lists.

slyborg

@feditips > threatens the long term safety of the whole Fediverse

Please stop with this nonsense.

BoneHouseWasps 🔶

@feditips Urrggh. I know I've got to do this at some point but it smacks of admin.

Adam Beer

@feditips Oh wow. Semi-common errors and 15-20% of all Mastodon users? I had no idea things were that bad!

SpaceLifeForm

@feditips

This is the correct approach. Move.

The Sidekiq queues can build up quickly on a large instance, and they can get stuck.

DELETED

@feditips

Maybe it's a silly nitpick nowadays, but I wish account age could be migrated as well.

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