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GeofCox

@GryphonSK

"Reality skews #left."

I agree. The political 'centre' - ie. the ideology of the status quo - misunderstands and misrepresents the difference between left and right, seeing them both as systems of values and ideas extending away from the centre is opposite directions. This is wrong, and how wrong it is is revealed by the fact that centrists also often see left and right joining together at the extremes.

To understand the real difference between left and right we have to go back to the very origin of the terms - in the seating arrangement in the National Assembly in the French Revolution - nobility and clergy on the right, and commoners on the left. The difference is not primarily about values and ideas - much less psychology - but real differences in wealth and privilege. And secondarily, the right appeals to sources of authority such as tradition and religion - and indeed authoritarian individuals - to justify wealth and privilege - whereas the left appeals to evidence and reason to resist oppression and exploitation.

The right is therefore inherently anti-rational, anti-science, anti- any genuine search for truth (it is frequently explicit about this); the left on the other hand embraces reason and evidence - so yes - it is at bottom the same as realism.

24 Sep 2023 at 9:51 | Wall-to-wall | Open on climatejustice.social
9 comments
Attie Grande

@GeofCox @GryphonSK I've always wondered what exactly "left" and "right" were supposed to reference or even mean... but I never looked it up.

That sounds almost entirely unsurprising - thanks for sharing!

24 Sep 2023 at 17:12 | Open on chaos.social
Matt Campbell

@GeofCox @GryphonSK That explanation of the origins of left and right is interesting, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the modern left has values synonymous with realism. For example, in the area of disability advocacy, it seems to me that reality skews right, in that right-leaning disabled people are more accepting of the reality that we're a minority, we'll never get the whole world to accommodate us, and thus we have to adapt to the world as it is. But maybe I misunderstand what you mean.

24 Sep 2023 at 17:27 | Open on toot.cafe
GeofCox

@matt @GryphonSK

I think the cross-purposes we're at here is that I'm thinking of political views - not the people that hold them.

Right-leaning people will be realistic, and tell the truth, about all sorts of things - including perhaps the minority status of disabled people - but not, generally, about.politics, since their belief that authority trumps reason and evidence leads them away from honestly engaging with reality.

For example, in most European countries there was no strong political division over covid masks or vaccinations, but in the US these did become politicised - leading many right-leaning people to behave irrationally.

@matt @GryphonSK

I think the cross-purposes we're at here is that I'm thinking of political views - not the people that hold them.

Right-leaning people will be realistic, and tell the truth, about all sorts of things - including perhaps the minority status of disabled people - but not, generally, about.politics, since their belief that authority trumps reason and evidence leads them away from honestly engaging with reality.

24 Sep 2023 at 20:33 | Open on climatejustice.social
Dan Neuman

@GeofCox @GryphonSK Every discussion of "the centre" comes off like a straw man to me. They are always wrong in the opposite direction of whoever is speaking. Politics takes place on a number of axes. A party might be in the centre of a couple of axes, but not all of them.

"The Left", the Democratic Party and Pre-Reagan republicans were on the same side wrt government importance. The Tea Party and now the "Freedom Coalition" are firmly on the other side.

24 Sep 2023 at 18:27 | Open on mstdn.ca
GeofCox

@dan613 @GryphonSK

I think the best way to come to an understanding of the political centre is to look at it in different times and places - hence my point that it is the ideology of the status quo. For example, think about the fascinating parallels between the suffragettes and climate protesters - and the almost identical centrist responses: that some (propertied) women should have votes - or today we should take some action on the climate - but militant action, and breaking the law, are not justified, and are probably counter-productive.

Positions that were in the political centre in times past are now extreme - usually on the right, because generally the left succeeds in reforming society, and gradually people are socialised into this changed status quo.

Seen in this historical or culture-specific perspective, it's surely clear that the political centre is the most ideological position of all, because it is no more nor less than an unthinking reflection of any society's normative assumptions.

@dan613 @GryphonSK

I think the best way to come to an understanding of the political centre is to look at it in different times and places - hence my point that it is the ideology of the status quo. For example, think about the fascinating parallels between the suffragettes and climate protesters - and the almost identical centrist responses: that some (propertied) women should have votes - or today we should take some action on the climate - but militant action, and breaking the law, are not justified,...

24 Sep 2023 at 21:17 | Open on climatejustice.social
Dan Neuman

@GeofCox @GryphonSK American centre, Canadian centre, or Northern European centre?

24 Sep 2023 at 22:18 | Open on mstdn.ca
GeofCox

@dan613 @GryphonSK

All or any of them. I'm English but live in France, so it's clear to me that the French 'centre' is well to the left of the English (as, incidentally, is the Scottish). In Saudi Arabia a centrist policy on, say, gender equality, or gay marriage, is going to be very different from a European centrist view.

Centrism is the ideology of the status quo, whatever that might be. It's for people that have been socialised in a particular world-view and lifestyle and don't really question it, or think about it much at all; its political theory is: 'Things are not too bad, I'm pretty comfortable with the way we're living, change is risky, best not to do too much'.

And this is one reason why, I think, it's so hard to get to necessary action on climate-ecological breakdown: the political centre accepts the science - respecting science and scientists has been very much part of their socialisation - yet still resists adequate action to avert catastrophe.

The left, on the other hand, grounded in fighting for those oppressed and exploited in the status quo, has always embraced the view that humanity is capable of organising itself on the basis of evidence and reason, for the benefit of all - so it easily now embraces the rational choice of radical action on climate-ecological breakdown. (While the right naturally embraces irrationality, superstition, and retires into conspiracy theories and 'culture wars'.)

@dan613 @GryphonSK

All or any of them. I'm English but live in France, so it's clear to me that the French 'centre' is well to the left of the English (as, incidentally, is the Scottish). In Saudi Arabia a centrist policy on, say, gender equality, or gay marriage, is going to be very different from a European centrist view.

25 Sep 2023 at 6:53 | Open on climatejustice.social
Dan Neuman

@GeofCox @GryphonSK Conservatism is the ideology of the status quo. It's in the name.

25 Sep 2023 at 11:19 | Open on mstdn.ca
GeofCox

@dan613 @GryphonSK

'Conservatism' with a small 'c' is one of the flavours of centrism - centre-right, as opposed to centre-left - but the basic proposition of both is: 'Things are not too bad, change is risky, let's just tinker a bit (centre-right) or a bit more (centre-left).

But of course actual parties that call themselves 'Conservative' vary in different times and places. In the UK the 'one nation' strand within the Conservative Party was dominant before Thatcher - this was genuinely centre-right - but with Thatcher the more extreme right took over, so it's now generally regarded simply as right-wing.

Before brexit, you could chart this movement via its affiliation in the European Parliament, moving away from the mainstream centre-right grouping and joining the far right.

@dan613 @GryphonSK

'Conservatism' with a small 'c' is one of the flavours of centrism - centre-right, as opposed to centre-left - but the basic proposition of both is: 'Things are not too bad, change is risky, let's just tinker a bit (centre-right) or a bit more (centre-left).

But of course actual parties that call themselves 'Conservative' vary in different times and places. In the UK the 'one nation' strand within the Conservative Party was dominant before Thatcher - this was genuinely centre-right...

25 Sep 2023 at 12:37 | Open on climatejustice.social
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