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Dan Goodin

@chartier There are a few problems, including:

-- None of the Twitter alternatives have parity in terms of features and capabilities. Yes, the Mastodon UX can be confusing for some, but the bigger problems are things like the inability to do basic searches or do quote posts (I hate the word "toot"). I've never understood this. These things seem like they'd be trivial to add, and yet there's no indication they will EVER be added. This is rightfully a dealbreaker for many.

-- People in 2023 are unwilling to make any sacrifice to their convenience in exchange for supporting social justice. They want to preach and shame others, but they don't want to give up their ability to socialize or promote themselves by leaving Twitter or Facebook, even though that's the only ethical thing to do.

6 Jul 2023 at 16:45 | Wall-to-wall | Open on infosec.exchange
38 comments
FvH 🦣
Emily

@hengstenberg @dangoodin @chartier maybe I'm using the wrong 3rd party app, but this is how your "quote post" appears to me. That's not particularly user friendly.

I have no intent to join threads or blue sky or whatever the new hotness is, but let's not pretend that Mastodon is as easy to use as others. And I could see that being a barrier for some users.
6 Jul 2023 at 17:47 | Open on mas.to
Dan Goodin

@Emtweetworld @hengstenberg @chartier The entire point of my post is that there is NO WAY to do quote posts. Your screenshot proves my point.

6 Jul 2023 at 17:50 | Open on infosec.exchange
Emily

@dangoodin @hengstenberg @chartier oh phew okay, same page! I know there are many that argue against it but I really think the lack of quote post hampers discoverability

6 Jul 2023 at 17:52 | Open on mas.to
David Chartier

@Emtweetworld @dangoodin @hengstenberg What if we don't need as much discoverability?

What if boosting a post is fine, and people can choose to follow that person on their own?

Linking a post with your own commentary works great too. People know how to tap on links, I super duper promise. They do.

6 Jul 2023 at 18:06 | Open on toot.cafe
Dan Goodin

@chartier @Emtweetworld @hengstenberg I get that YOU and other people you know don't need discoverability, but many people, me included, do need it. Mark my words because I'll stand behind them: without a working search capability, Maston will remain on the fringes and be dwarfed by competitors.

6 Jul 2023 at 18:16 | Open on infosec.exchange
David Chartier

@dangoodin @Emtweetworld @hengstenberg And maybe that's ok. If people want a toxic environment so badly, maybe they deserve a toxic environment.

6 Jul 2023 at 18:28 | Open on toot.cafe
Black Chic with the Red Truck

@dangoodin
Apparently some instances do have the ability to search. I can search on mine.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:11 | Open on universeodon.com
Dan Goodin

@ReneeWestberry Can you search tweets from other instances?

6 Jul 2023 at 19:25 | Open on infosec.exchange
Black Chic with the Red Truck
Dan Goodin replied to Black Chic with the Red Truck

@ReneeWestberry I don't see how the search box indicates that you can search posts from people on other instances. It's my understanding that the only way to search across instances is with hashtags. Maybe I'm wrong, though?

6 Jul 2023 at 19:32 | Open on infosec.exchange
Black Chic with the Red Truck replied to Dan

@dangoodin
Well I have used it and the results included posts from people on other instances. I haven’t tried to search for a specific person yet but it seems to offer me that option.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:39 | Open on universeodon.com
Ngati Pakeha Kuia

@ReneeWestberry @dangoodin Can’t you just view the Fediverse feed? Find people there?

7 Jul 2023 at 0:22 | Open on mastodon.nz
Inaya Shujaat عنايه شجاعت 🇳🇿 replied to Ngati Pakeha Kuia

@CarolynStirling @ReneeWestberry @dangoodin Naw, journos don’t do that. We commoners can do it, but they’re better than us.

7 Jul 2023 at 1:49 | Open on absolutelyhar.am
Inaya Shujaat عنايه شجاعت 🇳🇿
Inaya Shujaat عنايه شجاعت 🇳🇿

@dangoodin @chartier @hengstenberg @Emtweetworld Ohhhh. I get it. You’re a journo. You guys seem to hate Mastodon in general, because God forbid you have to actually interact with the unwashed. 😑

7 Jul 2023 at 1:49 | Open on absolutelyhar.am
Uraael

@dangoodin@infosec.exchange @Emtweetworld@mas.to @hengstenberg@nrw.social @chartier@toot.cafe

My question is - why do you need them?

You can link to someone's post in a couple of clicks. And before "It's not the same", WHY is it not the same?"

7 Jul 2023 at 7:28 | Open on blahaj.zone
FvH 🦣

@Emtweetworld @dangoodin @chartier Well, then it is wrong app ;-) This is how it looks here.
6 Jul 2023 at 19:21 | Open on nrw.social
David Chartier

@dangoodin There is a lot of discussion off-Masto and -Fedi about why QTs/QPs and search work (or don't) the way they do here. But in summary:

QPs *can* be used for good, but arguably are overwhelmingly used for toxic behavior—dunking, harassment, mob mentality, etc. A lot of this comes from people—especially the marginalized—who've been victims of this toxicity.

Search, basically the same deal. Tags are a great way to find content you want and opt-in to promote your own.

6 Jul 2023 at 17:53 | Open on toot.cafe
Dan Goodin

@chartier Those rationales may or may not make sense, but in either case they are dealbreakers that will prevent Mastodon from ever gaining critical mass. Until those features are available, Mastodon will remain a fringe social media outlet.

6 Jul 2023 at 17:56 | Open on infosec.exchange
David Chartier

@dangoodin I get that these are features people are used to elsewhere. But this really just sounds like “never mind all the evidence we have that these are features largely used for abuse and hurting real human beings, we want them.”

I just fall back to my original statement: I don't understand people.

6 Jul 2023 at 18:04 | Open on toot.cafe
Jonathan T

@chartier @dangoodin Quote posts are on the public roadmap for Mastodon, btw: joinmastodon.org/roadmap

Personally I think there are other far more important features that need adding first (such as restricting who can reply to posts and other safety measures).

Also worth pointing out that there are alternatives to Mastodon that don't have its mindshare (or iOS apps) that already support quoting and more normal search such as Calckey/Misskey/Hometown etc.

6 Jul 2023 at 18:51 | Open on mastodon.me.uk
David Chartier

@JonnyT @dangoodin If it's built with safety in mind *first* I am cautiously optimistic, because I *do* see the upside to them.

But these features historically almost never have been. And people unharmed by this stuff just keep trampling on. It's enraging.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:01 | Open on toot.cafe
Jonathan T

@chartier @dangoodin I'm hoping any QT/QP feature is opt-in only. Likewise, any full-text search features if ever added. (The one exception I think that should have been available from the start is the ability to do full text searches of your own posts - the absence of this is aggravating and there are no privacy concerns with it, assuming it's technically possible to isolate the index needed so that it's only available to you and you alone).

6 Jul 2023 at 19:05 | Open on mastodon.me.uk
Dan Goodin

@JonnyT @chartier There are a ton of researchers and journalists who need the ability to do full searches. They will continue to stay off Mastodon as long as it doesn't exist. Sounds like several people in this discussion prefer Mastodon to stay small and allow users to post to only a small number of people they know or trust. That's perfectly understandable. But those people really shouldn't be perplexed or angry about Masodon's low user base.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:28 | Open on infosec.exchange
David Chartier

@dangoodin @JonnyT *need -> would like to

Great, then maybe there can be infrastructure eventually to allow that, and most definitely some kind of opt-in mechanism for people who want to participate.

They don't have a right to anyone's data. This is one of the fundamental values people just accepted because, hey, capitalist hellscape and nothing matters anymore.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:32 | Open on toot.cafe
Dan Goodin

@chartier @JonnyT I have lots of criticisms of the capitalist hellscape, but I don't think you can pin people's need for full search solely on that. Some people's jobs or avocations require it. And if Mastodon won't provide it (even for legitimate reasons) they will choose to go elsewhere. Bottom line, Mastodon people have to chooses between a small neighborhood where everyone knows each other or a town square with critical mass. It will never be both.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:35 | Open on infosec.exchange
Jonathan T replied to Dan

@dangoodin @chartier I'm intrigued. You don't have full text search and access to >90% of the content on Facebook yet it's far more significant and important than Twitter ever was or will be.

It seems to me that you're measuring an expectation to access to content from the perspective of what happened to be available via a single social media platform - Twitter - that wasn't and isn't available elsewhere.

If that's a problem here, it'll be a problem elsewhere too.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:42 | Open on mastodon.me.uk
Dan Goodin replied to Jonathan

@JonnyT @chartier I have never used Facebook. Ever, so I can't speak to that. I can only say with conviction that until Mastodon search has parity with Twitter's Mastodon will remain an outpost.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:43 | Open on infosec.exchange
Jonathan T replied to Dan

@dangoodin @chartier I'm not disagreeing with you on that latter point, I fully expect Mastodon to remain a minority platform.

But I'm failing to see how access to content here will be all that different on eg. Threads. It's not like Instagram have ever made it easy to get content or data out of that platform so I don't expect they'll do any different with Threads. Bluesky may make it trivial to extract but it's unclear at this point whether or not it'll go anywhere.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:48 | Open on mastodon.me.uk
Dan Goodin replied to Jonathan

@JonnyT @chartier Yeah, I can't speak at all to Bluesky or Meta platforms. I just know that Mastodon search needs to be at parity with Twitter search. Oh, and quote posts, too.

6 Jul 2023 at 19:50 | Open on infosec.exchange
Jonathan T replied to Dan

@dangoodin @chartier I'm of the opinion that Twitter is already dead. I give it 6 months at most. Once it's gone, there isn't going to be another platform with search parity with Twitter. That era of access to almost everything on a platform will die with it. Mastodon could be that but I don't think the ethos of the place and the people building it will permit it.

Calckey supersedes Mastodon in terms of search etc but I'm not sure it'll get big enough either.

6 Jul 2023 at 20:05 | Open on mastodon.me.uk
Dan Goodin replied to Jonathan

@JonnyT @chartier Twitter may or may not be dead, but at the risk of repeating myself, Mastodon will never catch on without the capabilities I've mentioned.

6 Jul 2023 at 20:09 | Open on infosec.exchange
Uraael replied to Dan

@dangoodin@infosec.exchange @JonnyT@mastodon.me.uk @chartier@toot.cafe

Other platforms in the Fediverse, e.g. Calckey, that I'm using right now, have both Quote posts and full search and we're suffering zero ill effects from either. Coming from Twitter myself that has really surprised me.

7 Jul 2023 at 7:25 | Open on blahaj.zone
keithzg replied to Dan
@dangoodin @chartier @JonnyT I think the decentralized nature of The Fediverse actually very much means it *can* be both! It's just that depending on where you are within that network, it has to be at some point on a slider between those two options.

As an example of how this is already a thing that is neither true nor false but something the matters depending on where you are, on *my* single-user instance I do in fact have the ability to search beyond my home instance. It only shows posts my instance in turn knows about, so in practice it's largely the same as searching my own full timeline since there's only me that's causing my server to see any posts in the first place, but it certainly works and would mean any large multiuser instances would provide for journalists and researchers the ability to search for all posts anyone on their server sent or received.

The future is now, it's just unevenly distributed.

I'm on Pleroma; a fork of it, Akkoma, appears to have the option of another, more advanced search backend as well: https://docs.akkoma.dev/stable/configuration/search/

(You may be curious to follow the trail of that other search result which happened to use the same phrasing I copy-pasted as a test, you can pull on that thread at https://toot.cat/@woozle/110667344363350567 ).
@dangoodin @chartier @JonnyT I think the decentralized nature of The Fediverse actually very much means it *can* be both! It's just that depending on where you are within that network, it has to be at some point on a slider between those two options.
7 Jul 2023 at 3:12 | Open on fediverse.keithzg.ca
DELETED
Dan Goodin

@bobooten @chartier obviously, and to the point I've been trying to get across, is that it is a good thing for some, and a dealbreaker for others. Unfortunately, the latter camp includes researchers and others, who have a lot to contribute.

6 Jul 2023 at 20:52 | Open on infosec.exchange
Inaya Shujaat عنايه شجاعت 🇳🇿

@chartier @dangoodin I love the word “toot.” Sure as hell beats “tweet.”
7 Jul 2023 at 1:46 | Open on absolutelyhar.am
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